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A Raw Deal in Michigan

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Re: A Raw Deal in Michigan

#81

Post by TeMPOraL »

CalRobert wrote: post #63
danielhunt wrote: post #2

As an outsider, it really is difficult to understand why these practices are supported/allowed by the public. Is this information even available to people outside of the tech community? What in the hell is wrong with US politics* that allows for this to happen so blatantly, and so regularly, without any repercussions at all? * I'm aware that it's not (in general) a US-only problem, but for Tesla and the car dealershi…

This may get me downvoted, but I think the problem has more to do with the voters than the politicians. If people took the time to research candidates and issues independently instead of voting for whoever had the loudest ads, we might not see so much money in politics. Also, they're lazy and they don't care. Nerds on HN do, but talk to normal folks and they just. don't. care. about much of anything political, and th…

I'm first to call out all the bullshit general population believes in, but in this case I think it is counterproductive to blame people.

Behind all politicians there is a system designed to optimize for deceiving the electorate into believing what the politicians want. Millions if not billions of dollars and man-hours are spent every year to improve that system (that's not counting the private research branch known as advertising industry). Your average citizen Joe doesn't stand a chance here.

The fact that general population doesn't care about important issues (hint: what's on the news is mostly irrelevant) is a different thing and it hurts me, but I have no clue what we can do with it.

Re: A Raw Deal in Michigan

#82

Post by twosheep »

howeyc wrote: post #70
spacefight wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Setup 100% Tesla-owned franchise. Sell through that.

I'm not sure you can do this. Isn't the point of the franchise that it's owned by someone else? For example, if McDonald's corporate opens a location owned by them, can they called it a "franchise" location?

I think you can have it owned by a different company but with the same leadership as the parent. Isn't this how liability shields work? Lots of different LLCs with the same people at the helm?

Re: A Raw Deal in Michigan

#83

Post by zentiggr »

KayEss wrote: post #55
protonfish wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, thanks, we know. One could even say this is the core reason for many of the USA's other problems: the continuing financial crisis, for-profit medical system, huge rates of incarceration, justice system inequalities based on money, ever-widening income disparity, obscenely massive government spending, I could go on. The only solution is to have the legislators pass a law to stop it. Because they are huge benefici…

This just came up in another comment on HN: http://www.ted.com/talks/lawrence_lessig_we_the_people_and_t...

Wow - I've respected him for a while, but this is just amazingly well put. Game changing for me.

Re: A Raw Deal in Michigan

#84

Post by nathanm412 »

wiremine wrote: post #65
skrebbel wrote: post #22

Using a procedure that prevented legislators and the public at large from knowing what was happening or allowing debate, Senator Joe Hune added new language in an attempt to lock Tesla out of the State. Unsurprisingly, Senator Hune counts the Michigan Automobile Dealers Association as one of his top financial contributors, and his wife’s firm lobbies for the dealers. In the Netherlands, we call this corruption. (It h…

I live in Michigan, and was dishearten when I read about this story the other day. But not really that surprised. A few observations: - Tesla isn't a name brand here like Ford or GM. In fact, if you asked a lot of people if we should help the Big Three with this sort of legislation, you might be surprised by the answer. Remember, they generate a LOT of jobs in this state: not just the Big Three, but the tier 2 and ti…

Cold weather performance is trumpeted a lot by EV detractors, but the number one selling new car in Norway last month was the Tesla Model S.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/10/08/tesla-norway-idUSL...

Here's an interesting interview from Elon Musk about the Tesla battery winter performance. http://cleantechnica.com/2013/03/01/interview-with-elon-musk...

Re: A Raw Deal in Michigan

#85

Post by twosheep »

Shivetya wrote: post #50

Honestly Tesla, STAY OUT OF MICHIGAN. If you refuse to do business with the state, go as far as to discourage people living there form buying them, eventually there could be enough public pressure to bring about a change. If not that, perhaps a few billboards equating the politicians to Neanderthals might work Its time to ignore the states that refuse to play fair, shame them, and perhaps their voters will wake up.

I'm not sure that would work in a state as car-centric as Michigan; "out of sight, out of mind." Lots of other cars to buy, especially given Tesla's demographic when compared with Michigan's demographic.

Re: A Raw Deal in Michigan

#86

Post by colomon »

cdnsteve wrote: post #31
danielhunt wrote: post #2

As an outsider, it really is difficult to understand why these practices are supported/allowed by the public. Is this information even available to people outside of the tech community? What in the hell is wrong with US politics* that allows for this to happen so blatantly, and so regularly, without any repercussions at all? * I'm aware that it's not (in general) a US-only problem, but for Tesla and the car dealershi…

Why is it that first world countries have the most unaccountable political systems ever seen? Even here in Canada, Rob Ford anyone? Here too in Canada we've banned Zenn, a Canadian electric car company - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZENN but we're making prominent bike lanes, go figure.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_choice

Re: A Raw Deal in Michigan

#87

Post by freshflowers »

Confusion wrote: post #60
freshflowers wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh, get of your high horse. In the Netherlands it's done via mutual favors, usually in the form of cushy and insanely overpaid jobs for former politicians and civil servants in exchange for favorable laws and government contracts. This happens openly in a way that would be called scandalous corruption in Germany. In the Netherlands, we call what happens in other countries corruption and think our own shit doesn't sme…

There are fairly objective rankings of this sort of thing[1] and both The Netherlands and Germany score significantly better than the US. That we also have corruption does not mean it is as bad as elsewhere and does not mean we don't get to call out blatant examples of it, especially blatant examples of the sort that are easy to get rid of by calling them out. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_…

The issue is, the Netherlands, in it's firm believe that it's so much better than other countries, has created a warped perception of corruption, which makes us look good in those survey based rankings. Because we actually believe our own delusion.

Take for instance the recent German corruption scandal that forced President Wulff to resign. Receiving such favors is business as usual in the Netherlands, and simply doesn't count as corruption. The media don't care either, with the exception of shock-blog GeenStijl. But even when the latter presents cold hard evidence, nine out of ten times the entire establishment including the media just goes "meh".

Doing business in the Netherlands that involves government contracts or regulation usually means having to bribe people in some way.

I'm not saying it's that much worse than in other countries (but it tends to shock our German and Nordic friends), but we definitely don't have the moral right call out American corruption via campaign contributions when the only difference is the way politicians get paid off.

Re: A Raw Deal in Michigan

#88

Post by TeMPOraL »

atlantic wrote: post #27
easytiger wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> allowed by the public Well, democracy is largely bullshit so your phrase endears the democratic process with more credit than it is due. We suppose that our quality of life and our pace of change are side effects of our current leadership process. I personally suppose that is is but a partial input to a more complex contrivance of systems which have led us to where we are.

Don't be too quick to condemn democracy. Granted, most of the propaganda about the vox populi is false. But its key virtue is that it allows change of government without bloodshed. As Popper said, "We are democrats, not because the majority is always right, but because democratic traditions are the least evil ones of which we know". It's not the best system, but it's probably the least bad one.

> But its key virtue is that it allows change of government without bloodshed.

This is a strongest point I ever heard in favour of democracy, and ironically, I don't remember ever being taught it in school or see it mentioned often.

Re: A Raw Deal in Michigan

#90

Post by Igglyboo »

wiremine wrote: post #65
skrebbel wrote: post #22

Using a procedure that prevented legislators and the public at large from knowing what was happening or allowing debate, Senator Joe Hune added new language in an attempt to lock Tesla out of the State. Unsurprisingly, Senator Hune counts the Michigan Automobile Dealers Association as one of his top financial contributors, and his wife’s firm lobbies for the dealers. In the Netherlands, we call this corruption. (It h…

I live in Michigan, and was dishearten when I read about this story the other day. But not really that surprised. A few observations: - Tesla isn't a name brand here like Ford or GM. In fact, if you asked a lot of people if we should help the Big Three with this sort of legislation, you might be surprised by the answer. Remember, they generate a LOT of jobs in this state: not just the Big Three, but the tier 2 and ti…

Exactly this. I'm about to graduate with a BS in Computer Science from Oakland University. We're less than a mile away from Chrysler World HQ. I'd say about 90% of my classmates already are, or are going to, work for one of the Big 3 or Big 3 suppliers. If you explained this situation to most people you met on the street, they would probably be in favor of fucking over Tesla.

Cars are pretty much the backbone of the entire economy here in MI. It's getting better, but not fast enough. Apparently what happened to Flint and Detroit wasn't enough of a wakeup call for everyone.

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