Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

A Raw Deal in Michigan

teslamotors.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

121–130 of 201 posts

Re: A Raw Deal in Michigan

#121

Post by gutnor »

jmckib wrote: post #20
fabian2k wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's more complicated than that, insurance was a big issue in Germany. There is a mandatory minimum of 7.5 million EUR for damages to persons in Germany, the insurance offered by Uber was lower than that according to the news a while back. There were also other issues in Germany like the mandatory health check for taxi drivers and the shorter intervals for the mandatory car maintenance for taxis.

Ah, ok. Some of those regulations sound quite absurd to me, but I'm not familiar enough with the situation to comment.

The taxi market is very different in Europe than in the US and different in every country. Uber faces a different set of challenges in different countries. Taxi service is not universally crap around the world and Uber is not answering the need of the people as strongly everywhere.

For example in the UK, GPS tracking, booking of your taxi online, pre-pay, ... was already available before Uber. 10 years ago the black cabs were in the street for the same reason GP describe but against mini-cab and private hire companies (and older tech). A regulation was created from that requiring them a commercial insurance and twice a year inspection of the vehicle.

Re: A Raw Deal in Michigan

#122

Post by lost_name »

spacefight wrote: post #48
Al__Dante wrote: post #44

I think this might be the relevant change (contained in bill S-1 which was substituted in the Regulatory Reform Committee): "2 (i) Sell any new motor vehicle directly to a retail customer 3 other than through its franchised dealers, unless the retail 4 customer is a nonprofit organization or a federal, state, or local 5 government or agency. This subdivision does not prohibit a 6 manufacturer from providing informati…

Setup 100% Tesla-owned franchise. Sell through that.

Honestly, if the loophole was that simple I would think they would have started with this.

Re: A Raw Deal in Michigan

#123

Post by danielweber »

CalRobert wrote: post #63
danielhunt wrote: post #2

As an outsider, it really is difficult to understand why these practices are supported/allowed by the public. Is this information even available to people outside of the tech community? What in the hell is wrong with US politics* that allows for this to happen so blatantly, and so regularly, without any repercussions at all? * I'm aware that it's not (in general) a US-only problem, but for Tesla and the car dealershi…

This may get me downvoted, but I think the problem has more to do with the voters than the politicians. If people took the time to research candidates and issues independently instead of voting for whoever had the loudest ads, we might not see so much money in politics. Also, they're lazy and they don't care. Nerds on HN do, but talk to normal folks and they just. don't. care. about much of anything political, and th…

Also, they're lazy and they don't care. Nerds on HN do,

This is, at best, silly. It's not like people on HN are any more informed on politics than the average person. They think they're more informed, which makes for worse political discussion, because they've invested more of their identity[1] in being right.

Most people are rationally ignorant about politics. It's not like being more aware will necessarily lead to the positions you want. It wouldn't take much to convince workers in Michigan to pass a law that makes things more difficult for cars made in California.

[1] http://www.paulgraham.com/identity.html

Re: A Raw Deal in Michigan

#124

Post by hueving »

clarebear wrote: post #68
wiremine wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live in Michigan, and was dishearten when I read about this story the other day. But not really that surprised. A few observations: - Tesla isn't a name brand here like Ford or GM. In fact, if you asked a lot of people if we should help the Big Three with this sort of legislation, you might be surprised by the answer. Remember, they generate a LOT of jobs in this state: not just the Big Three, but the tier 2 and ti…

My retired father-in-law who lives in a suburb of Detroit got a car that was not manufactured by the by the Big Three a couple years ago. He felt so much social pressure that he quickly returned it and got one that was. He told me that some "foreign" cars would be egged in his neighborhood. I put foreign in quotes, as big three cars are not always manufactured in the US and sometimes other cars are manufactured here.…

There is a big difference between the big 3 and dealers. In fact, wiping the requirements for this middlescum would help the big 3 as well.

Re: A Raw Deal in Michigan

#125

Post by wil421 »

couchand wrote: post #69
wil421 wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They represent the corporations but in the case of an autodealer association they are probably claiming to represent their employees. Think of them similar to a union except they are lobbying legislators instead of corporations.

Automotive dealerships are not at all like a union. There's a critical distinction here between labor and capital.

I never said auto dealerships but the autodealer associations in each state. The associations are the ones that are doing the lobbying on behalf of dealers. IIRC Ford tried to do direct sales to customers in the 90s maybe? The Ford dealers lobbied and shut Ford out.

Re: A Raw Deal in Michigan

#126

Post by [deleted] »

wiremine wrote: post #65
skrebbel wrote: post #22

Using a procedure that prevented legislators and the public at large from knowing what was happening or allowing debate, Senator Joe Hune added new language in an attempt to lock Tesla out of the State. Unsurprisingly, Senator Hune counts the Michigan Automobile Dealers Association as one of his top financial contributors, and his wife’s firm lobbies for the dealers. In the Netherlands, we call this corruption. (It h…

I live in Michigan, and was dishearten when I read about this story the other day. But not really that surprised. A few observations: - Tesla isn't a name brand here like Ford or GM. In fact, if you asked a lot of people if we should help the Big Three with this sort of legislation, you might be surprised by the answer. Remember, they generate a LOT of jobs in this state: not just the Big Three, but the tier 2 and ti…

[deleted]

Re: A Raw Deal in Michigan

#127

Post by fooqux »

dragontamer wrote: post #112
fooqux wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From your first link: > "Electric cars have been especially popular in Norway because of generous subsidies, free parking, government-provided re-charging stations, the right to use express lanes on highways and exemptions from tolls." Yeah, Michigan has (almost) none of that. Cold weather battery performance could be ignored here if there were charging stations all over. Sure, there are a handful of charging station…

You missed the point. Norway's average temperature is way colder than Michigan's. http://www.weather-and-climate.com/uploads/average-temperatu... Oslo, Norway is one of the southern cities... Norway's geography extends all the way up to the arctic circle. Its latitude is more similar to Alaska . Tromsø, Norway is very far above the arctic circle, and my understanding is that the Tesla has been performing quite well e…

No, I think I understood your point, and the point of the second article. (Thanks for that, by the way, I wasn't aware that Tesla had improved battery performance by keeping them warm. A neat idea.) I just didn't write my response very well, and for that I apologize.

What I was referring to was mostly the amount of energy the climate control system uses. Heating the cabin is going to suck some juice. I've talked to Chevy Volt owners about their winter performance and they say heating is their biggest problem in the winter. Even with the gasoline engine running to provide some waste heat for the cabin, they still get 50% of their normal range if they turn the heat on. If they're OK with driving to work wearing thick gloves and a winter parka while scraping the ice from the inside of their windshield, they only lose about 20% of their range which I presume is purely due to cold-weather battery performance at that point. Elon claims in the second article only 10% loss due to heating the cabin which frankly I don't believe and am chalking up to "MPG benchmarking nonsense." I admit I could be wrong, but I'd have to see some compelling numbers.

I believe my main point still stands though, which is that the government of Norway has built up the infrastructure and given people incentive to drive these cars. This doesn't exist in Michigan. Chargemap.com says that there are 1,416 charging stations in Norway. According to energy.gov, Michigan has 700. Meanwhile, according to the population density map on Wikipedia (1994 was the newest I could find, sadly) almost all the population in Norway is condensed into very small areas along the edges. Michigan is all over the place (except for the UP, which is noticeably lower). Assuming they only installed charging stations where there are people, this means that while in Norway, you likely have access to a charging station wherever you drive, unlike Michigan. So basically, we're comparing apples to kumquats here and you can't just point to the popularity of Tesla as proof of anything other than Norway's government was forward thinking.

Re: A Raw Deal in Michigan

#128

Post by RandallBrown »

dragontamer wrote: post #112
fooqux wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From your first link: > "Electric cars have been especially popular in Norway because of generous subsidies, free parking, government-provided re-charging stations, the right to use express lanes on highways and exemptions from tolls." Yeah, Michigan has (almost) none of that. Cold weather battery performance could be ignored here if there were charging stations all over. Sure, there are a handful of charging station…

You missed the point. Norway's average temperature is way colder than Michigan's. http://www.weather-and-climate.com/uploads/average-temperatu... Oslo, Norway is one of the southern cities... Norway's geography extends all the way up to the arctic circle. Its latitude is more similar to Alaska . Tromsø, Norway is very far above the arctic circle, and my understanding is that the Tesla has been performing quite well e…

Detroit also got 95 inches of snow last year. The average temperature in Norway is NOT way colder than Michigan. In fact, they look quite similar. http://www.usclimatedata.com/climate/detroit/michigan/united...

Detroit is also one of the Southern cities in Michigan. Average temperatures in tromso (https://weatherspark.com/averages/28894/Troms-Norway) are actually warmer than in Marquette. (http://www.weather.com/weather/wxclimatology/monthly/graph/U...)

In Michigan's upper peninsula it's not uncommon to get 2 or 3 times that much snow.

Re: A Raw Deal in Michigan

#129

Post by exelius »

skrebbel wrote: post #22

Using a procedure that prevented legislators and the public at large from knowing what was happening or allowing debate, Senator Joe Hune added new language in an attempt to lock Tesla out of the State. Unsurprisingly, Senator Hune counts the Michigan Automobile Dealers Association as one of his top financial contributors, and his wife’s firm lobbies for the dealers. In the Netherlands, we call this corruption. (It h…

Political corruption like this is seen as being so common place here that the media largely ignores it.

Also, the US is a BIG place. There are 4 states in the US with larger populations than the Netherlands. However, news is generally distributed at the national and local levels (local news stations and national media outlets). Very few people watch local news anymore, so local news tends to be more like Buzzfeed than informative. National news is headed that way as well.

Overall though, people aren't interested in stories about corruption. So the politicians get away with it, because stories about OMG EBOLA WILL KILL YOU draw more viewers than yet another political corruption story.

Re: A Raw Deal in Michigan

#130

Post by tjpaxton »

wiremine wrote: post #65
skrebbel wrote: post #22

Using a procedure that prevented legislators and the public at large from knowing what was happening or allowing debate, Senator Joe Hune added new language in an attempt to lock Tesla out of the State. Unsurprisingly, Senator Hune counts the Michigan Automobile Dealers Association as one of his top financial contributors, and his wife’s firm lobbies for the dealers. In the Netherlands, we call this corruption. (It h…

I live in Michigan, and was dishearten when I read about this story the other day. But not really that surprised. A few observations: - Tesla isn't a name brand here like Ford or GM. In fact, if you asked a lot of people if we should help the Big Three with this sort of legislation, you might be surprised by the answer. Remember, they generate a LOT of jobs in this state: not just the Big Three, but the tier 2 and ti…

- I haven't seen one media story about this yet, outside of social media.

I also live in michigan and both of the major detroit newspapers had this on the front page early this morning [0][1].

- Tesla isn't a name brand here like Ford or GM. In fact, if you asked a lot of people if we should help the Big Three with this sort of legislation, you might be surprised by the answer. Remember, they generate a LOT of jobs in this state: not just the Big Three, but the tier 2 and tier 3 manufactors. While I think logic would win out in the day, I wouldn't assume that everybody in Michigan _wants_ Tesla. It isn't in their best interest.

This is about helping dealerships, not manufacturers so you'd think that any support for the Big Three manufactures wouldn't correlate with support for this bill.

[0] - http://www.detroitnews.com/story/business/autos/2014/10/16/t... [1] -http://www.freep.com/story/money/cars/2014/10/17/michigan-ve...

Post reply on HN