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A Raw Deal in Michigan

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Re: A Raw Deal in Michigan

#71

Post by hnnewguy »

hooande wrote: post #30
skrebbel wrote: post #22

Using a procedure that prevented legislators and the public at large from knowing what was happening or allowing debate, Senator Joe Hune added new language in an attempt to lock Tesla out of the State. Unsurprisingly, Senator Hune counts the Michigan Automobile Dealers Association as one of his top financial contributors, and his wife’s firm lobbies for the dealers. In the Netherlands, we call this corruption. (It h…

There's nothing corrupt about it. The voting citizens of Michigan like the auto industry the way it is and they have an understandable fear of disruptive new technologies. It makes good sense that someone representing a state known for producing automobiles would accept campaign contributions from automobile manufacturers. Many of the people he represents are employed by those companies in some way and it's his job t…

>It makes good sense that someone representing a state known for producing automobiles would accept campaign contributions from automobile manufacturers

I, for one, agree with you wholeheartedly. This is politics in action. Just because you don't particularly agree with a decision doesn't mean it isn't working as intended.

When subjects like this are broached on this forum, we hear about lobbying and corruption, as if companies like Tesla-- who direct tax credits to rich people and play states off other for employment-- are above this. The tech industry in general is a huge lobby.

Re: A Raw Deal in Michigan

#72

Post by untothebreach »

clarebear wrote: post #68
wiremine wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live in Michigan, and was dishearten when I read about this story the other day. But not really that surprised. A few observations: - Tesla isn't a name brand here like Ford or GM. In fact, if you asked a lot of people if we should help the Big Three with this sort of legislation, you might be surprised by the answer. Remember, they generate a LOT of jobs in this state: not just the Big Three, but the tier 2 and ti…

My retired father-in-law who lives in a suburb of Detroit got a car that was not manufactured by the by the Big Three a couple years ago. He felt so much social pressure that he quickly returned it and got one that was. He told me that some "foreign" cars would be egged in his neighborhood. I put foreign in quotes, as big three cars are not always manufactured in the US and sometimes other cars are manufactured here.…

and friend of mine's father drives around Flint, MI in a Honda Civic with the license plate "GMLEFT." Needless to say, he has frequently had to deal with vandalism. The truth hurts.

Re: A Raw Deal in Michigan

#73

Post by tormeh »

jmckib wrote: post #20
fabian2k wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's more complicated than that, insurance was a big issue in Germany. There is a mandatory minimum of 7.5 million EUR for damages to persons in Germany, the insurance offered by Uber was lower than that according to the news a while back. There were also other issues in Germany like the mandatory health check for taxi drivers and the shorter intervals for the mandatory car maintenance for taxis.

Ah, ok. Some of those regulations sound quite absurd to me, but I'm not familiar enough with the situation to comment.

Well, let's say you're crippled for life in a taxi accident. The intention is that the insurance payout should compensate you for the lost economic utility of your limbs for the rest of your life. Suddenly 7.5M EUR is not that much.

Re: A Raw Deal in Michigan

#74

Post by hnnewguy »

danielhunt wrote: post #2

As an outsider, it really is difficult to understand why these practices are supported/allowed by the public. Is this information even available to people outside of the tech community? What in the hell is wrong with US politics* that allows for this to happen so blatantly, and so regularly, without any repercussions at all? * I'm aware that it's not (in general) a US-only problem, but for Tesla and the car dealershi…

>Is this information even available to people outside of the tech community?

You overestimate how much people outside of the tech industry care about what is, at this point, a rich person's toy.

Most people couldn't care less whether someone buying a $100,000+ vehicle is modestly inconvenienced. When/if circumstances change, and Tesla builds a car for the masses, the laws will change accordingly. People are self-interested.

Re: A Raw Deal in Michigan

#75

Post by protonfish »

dopamean wrote: post #67
protonfish wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, thanks, we know. One could even say this is the core reason for many of the USA's other problems: the continuing financial crisis, for-profit medical system, huge rates of incarceration, justice system inequalities based on money, ever-widening income disparity, obscenely massive government spending, I could go on. The only solution is to have the legislators pass a law to stop it. Because they are huge benefici…

Which continuing financial crisis are you referring to?

What I mean is after the financial crisis of 2008, the US has made no significant law changes, has not increased enforcement and all the key players are still in their cushy positions (and not in jail.) We have fixed nothing so it is only a matter of time before it happens again.

Re: A Raw Deal in Michigan

#76

Post by mempko »

dopamean wrote: post #67
protonfish wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, thanks, we know. One could even say this is the core reason for many of the USA's other problems: the continuing financial crisis, for-profit medical system, huge rates of incarceration, justice system inequalities based on money, ever-widening income disparity, obscenely massive government spending, I could go on. The only solution is to have the legislators pass a law to stop it. Because they are huge benefici…

Which continuing financial crisis are you referring to?

global capitalism?

Re: A Raw Deal in Michigan

#77

Post by kyllo »

oatmeal_coffee wrote: post #66
DavidWanjiru wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the question was whether or not to ban lobbying, how do the benefits of lobbying stack up against the damage? That whole cost-benefit analysis thing...

The question is whether or not to ban lobbying is not a reasonable one, if only because lobbying would not be able to be banned just on a principle of free speech alone. People have a voice—good, bad, whatever—and lobbying provides an efficient means of communicating that voice. The question is rather how to reduce, if not obviate, the damage caused by the role of money in lobbying without violating free speech right…

Yeah... I think the whole premise behind SuperPACs is the ridiculous notion that money = speech and campaign contributions are protected free speech.

Re: A Raw Deal in Michigan

#78

Post by hippich »

When I hear about Tesla not being able to sell directly to customers, and have to go through dealer, I always wondered why different corporate structure can not be created, where some head company owns Tesla and all dealerships used to sell Tesla cars? This way it is not manufacturer selling these and control of the distribution is still within parent organization.

Re: A Raw Deal in Michigan

#79

Post by phurley »

clarebear wrote: post #68
wiremine wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live in Michigan, and was dishearten when I read about this story the other day. But not really that surprised. A few observations: - Tesla isn't a name brand here like Ford or GM. In fact, if you asked a lot of people if we should help the Big Three with this sort of legislation, you might be surprised by the answer. Remember, they generate a LOT of jobs in this state: not just the Big Three, but the tier 2 and ti…

My retired father-in-law who lives in a suburb of Detroit got a car that was not manufactured by the by the Big Three a couple years ago. He felt so much social pressure that he quickly returned it and got one that was. He told me that some "foreign" cars would be egged in his neighborhood. I put foreign in quotes, as big three cars are not always manufactured in the US and sometimes other cars are manufactured here.…

I live in a Detroit suburb, a large number of the residents here are engineers, many for GM, Ford and Chrysler, but quite a few for Toyota, Hyundai and other foreign suppliers (like Bosch and Yazaki). I see many domestic, but almost as many imports here.

I think a lot of the stigma is gone, certainly there is considerable pressure for people to drive their employers vehicle to work, but at least in my (relatively upscale) neighborhood, I would feel no social pressure against, and I bet I would have a bunch of engineers come visit, if I dug up a 100k and put a Tesla in my driveway.

Re: A Raw Deal in Michigan

#80

Post by ceejayoz »

hippich wrote: post #78

When I hear about Tesla not being able to sell directly to customers, and have to go through dealer, I always wondered why different corporate structure can not be created, where some head company owns Tesla and all dealerships used to sell Tesla cars? This way it is not manufacturer selling these and control of the distribution is still within parent organization.

IIRC in many states dealerships are required to have independent ownership from the manufacturer and no individual/company can own more than one.
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