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Web-Era Trade Schools, Feeding a Need for Code

nytimes.com

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Re: Web-Era Trade Schools, Feeding a Need for Code

#31

Post by vinceguidry »

mjhea0 wrote: post #25
swalsh wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing about programmers though, is bad coders are actually job creators. Bad code bases require more and more resources to maintain (as entropy increases), until ultimately they hit that breaking point where you need to hire a bunch of contractors to rebuild it. Good code bases are built in a way that you can pay down technical debt while enhancing the product. I view programming as more of an art then a science,…

Skip the middle man - bootcamps. Hire non-developers to screw up he codebase!

Non-developers won't get far enough to make the mistakes.

Re: Web-Era Trade Schools, Feeding a Need for Code

#32

Post by nsxwolf »

mgirdley wrote: post #15
UK-AL wrote: post #3

Reminds of the late 90's, early 2000 era, when every man off the street was doing mcse, cisco qualifications etc with the promise of highly paying jobs. Then a few years later there was gut of unemployed techies.

Disclaimer: I run a bootcamp in San Antonio called Codeup. While the media paints the camps as "get a great paying job", I see more people wanting a more meaningful life. They've got an expensive degree in English or something similarly un-useful and want to work on things that matter. They see coding as the path to get there.

I like making enough money to take care of the needs of my wife and 3 kids, and I pursue most of my meaning in life with them outside of work.

Re: Web-Era Trade Schools, Feeding a Need for Code

#33

Post by vinceguidry »

cheriot wrote: post #19
oftenwrong wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are those job opportunities you want? For me, maintaining poorly-written code bases is not enjoyable.

Screw the maintenance, but I don't mind being the one to do the rewrite. By then they won't see programmer salaries as a place to pinch pennies.

What's happening is there's a growing number of business needs that need a programmer's attention but don't quite justify throwing a Silicon Valley salary at. So you see management pushing to try to hire someone at the rates they're used to paying people at.

It means there's a lot more opportunity out there, for both experienced coders and people looking to break in. Just like oil and other resources, the more supply that gets pumped in, the more demand blows up for all tiers.

We're all going to be very, very busy for the foreseeable future.

Re: Web-Era Trade Schools, Feeding a Need for Code

#34

Post by baltcode »

Not all engineers live in SF and make more money than they know what to do with. What are the kind of services that most engineers and coders are paying through the nose? Attorneys, financial services, therapists, etc.

Why not have more schools training these professions?

Re: Web-Era Trade Schools, Feeding a Need for Code

#35

Post by nilkn »

baltcode wrote: post #34

Not all engineers live in SF and make more money than they know what to do with. What are the kind of services that most engineers and coders are paying through the nose? Attorneys, financial services, therapists, etc. Why not have more schools training these professions?

There are already too many schools training attorneys -- so many, in fact, that getting a law degree does not at all guarantee a decent job as a lawyer.

Salaries at top law firms remain very strong, but salaries at most other firms are much lower than what one would expect due to the vast number of graduates.

Re: Web-Era Trade Schools, Feeding a Need for Code

#36

Post by nilkn »

checker659 wrote: post #24
nilkn wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People who made fun of me in high school for being interested in programming are now trying to get programming jobs. People I know who flunked out of college or were expelled for cheating are now programmers. I'm now the only programmer at my company with a math or CS degree. (The others have degrees, but in biology, history, etc. -- they were all career switchers.) That's how pervasive it's becoming. If there's any…

What do you work on?

I'm at a bootstrapped company that was profitable since inception, so we're relatively safe in the event of a collapse in VC funding.

My concern is that, as far as I can tell, almost all bootcamp-trained coders are going to VC-funded startups, many of which are fairly early stage. Those jobs could all disappear overnight, so to speak, if a bunch of VCs decided they wanted to invest their money in something other than technology.

Re: Web-Era Trade Schools, Feeding a Need for Code

#37

Post by mgirdley »

porter wrote: post #23
mgirdley wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Disclaimer: I run a bootcamp in San Antonio called Codeup. While the media paints the camps as "get a great paying job", I see more people wanting a more meaningful life. They've got an expensive degree in English or something similarly un-useful and want to work on things that matter. They see coding as the path to get there.

Can you define what "matters"? What exactly are people finding more meaningful about programming as opposed to English?

They want to work things that are used by real people. If they can help the world be better and get to see their work being used, that's a plus.

Many are stuck in what they consider dead-end careers like retail or customer service. They feel like cogs in a machine.

Re: Web-Era Trade Schools, Feeding a Need for Code

#38

Post by mgirdley »

pessimizer wrote: post #30
mgirdley wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If bootcamp grads are "doing it right", they'll keep developing and evolving their skills.

This is probably unfair, but I think that most of them are going to lack the math background to advance their skills very far from implementing simple CRUD apps in common frameworks. I don't know that STEM people are going to code schools; I think they probably just google the manual, read a few tutorials and have at it.

The reality is that most custom web applications aren't more than CRUD. No advanced math concepts are required beyond algebra level stuff.

Re: Web-Era Trade Schools, Feeding a Need for Code

#39

Post by comatose_kid »

What do people think about an alternate path - read a few good books, create something useful on a github page?

My hiring bias skews towards people with a good engineering background or concrete examples of meaningful contributions to non-trivial coding projects.

Sure, vocational school is fine while demand for programmers is outstripping supply. But those who lived thru 1999 and the resulting downturn have seen that these things can turn on a dime and a 6-month certificate may not provide much job security.

Re: Web-Era Trade Schools, Feeding a Need for Code

#40

Post by mgirdley »

michaelvkpdx wrote: post #29
mgirdley wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Disclaimer: I run a bootcamp in San Antonio called Codeup. While the media paints the camps as "get a great paying job", I see more people wanting a more meaningful life. They've got an expensive degree in English or something similarly un-useful and want to work on things that matter. They see coding as the path to get there.

If you classify an English degree as "un-useful", you should not be involved in educating developers. I studied both CS and English in college, and got my degree in English. The communication skills and translation techniques I learned as an English major have been tremendously useful to me in my career as a software engineer. In my experience hiring developers, I've found that those with liberal arts degrees do very…

I agree that CS+English is better than English and a BA in English is better than nothing.

The problem is that the skills from an English degree itself aren't in high demand by employers.

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