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Web-Era Trade Schools, Feeding a Need for Code

nytimes.com

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Re: Web-Era Trade Schools, Feeding a Need for Code

#11

Post by never_snapped »

the_duck wrote: post #8

Whenever I read about coding bootcamps I feel a tinge of worry that they might mean the end of the "good old days" for software developers. Do we expect that they'll have any tangible impact on the labor market by pumping out so many graduates with basic coding skills?

I think they will put some downward pressure on the lowest of entry level jobs in languages/frameworks that are becoming a commodity (rails in particular), but wont affect jobs outside of that too much. Many people switch careers (moving over to software sales, for example, or getting out of IT all together) after an entry level job, or become more specialized in different a subset of skills.

Re: Web-Era Trade Schools, Feeding a Need for Code

#12

Post by oftenwrong »

swalsh wrote: post #6
UK-AL wrote: post #3

Reminds of the late 90's, early 2000 era, when every man off the street was doing mcse, cisco qualifications etc with the promise of highly paying jobs. Then a few years later there was gut of unemployed techies.

The thing about programmers though, is bad coders are actually job creators. Bad code bases require more and more resources to maintain (as entropy increases), until ultimately they hit that breaking point where you need to hire a bunch of contractors to rebuild it. Good code bases are built in a way that you can pay down technical debt while enhancing the product. I view programming as more of an art then a science,…

Are those job opportunities you want? For me, maintaining poorly-written code bases is not enjoyable.

Re: Web-Era Trade Schools, Feeding a Need for Code

#13

Post by shoover »

the_duck wrote: post #8

Whenever I read about coding bootcamps I feel a tinge of worry that they might mean the end of the "good old days" for software developers. Do we expect that they'll have any tangible impact on the labor market by pumping out so many graduates with basic coding skills?

From the comments: "Look on the bright side. It's like being a professional mechanic in a town full of klutzy amateurs. The more they mess up, the more work we get. True, it's horrible work, but it's work!"

c.f. http://blog.cleancoder.com/uncle-bob/2014/06/20/MyLawn.html

Re: Web-Era Trade Schools, Feeding a Need for Code

#14

Post by LordKano »

the_duck wrote: post #8

Whenever I read about coding bootcamps I feel a tinge of worry that they might mean the end of the "good old days" for software developers. Do we expect that they'll have any tangible impact on the labor market by pumping out so many graduates with basic coding skills?

I made my exit this year.

I just couldn't endure the attempts to turn programming into the new accounting. So, this summer, I switched from a developer to a security admin.

I can't imagine that adding thousands of new, minimally skilled programmers to the labor pool is going to do anything but make the situation worse.

Don't get me wrong, I think that programming being more accessible to anyone who is interested is a good thing. I am just concerned that we're going to have a bunch of people who want to get into it because they think it's the next hot thing. Like "Web Development" was 16-20 years ago.

Re: Web-Era Trade Schools, Feeding a Need for Code

#15

Post by mgirdley »

UK-AL wrote: post #3

Reminds of the late 90's, early 2000 era, when every man off the street was doing mcse, cisco qualifications etc with the promise of highly paying jobs. Then a few years later there was gut of unemployed techies.

Disclaimer: I run a bootcamp in San Antonio called Codeup.

While the media paints the camps as "get a great paying job", I see more people wanting a more meaningful life. They've got an expensive degree in English or something similarly un-useful and want to work on things that matter. They see coding as the path to get there.

Re: Web-Era Trade Schools, Feeding a Need for Code

#16

Post by mgirdley »

loudin wrote: post #10

My gut reaction is that these boot camps are fueling some employment at early-stage start-ups because the graduates are far less expensive than more seasoned developers and the code they write is probably okay enough for a short while. Why would larger tech companies hire from this pool? I would imagine that there are enough CS grads in the market for them already. Does anyone here hire graduates from these schools?…

If you look at the open dev job postings, experienced developers are where the shortage is. Companies hire bootcamp graduates to take workload off of the experienced (3+ yrs) developers plates.

Interestingly enough, if you look at job postings you'll also see that a disproportionate number of job listings want 3-5 yrs experience. Companies want people who someone else has trained for 3 years but don't want to pay the prices that people with 5 or 10 years experience command.

Disclaimer: I run a bootcamp in San Antonio called Codeup.

Re: Web-Era Trade Schools, Feeding a Need for Code

#17

Post by mgirdley »

never_snapped wrote: post #11
the_duck wrote: post #8

Whenever I read about coding bootcamps I feel a tinge of worry that they might mean the end of the "good old days" for software developers. Do we expect that they'll have any tangible impact on the labor market by pumping out so many graduates with basic coding skills?

I think they will put some downward pressure on the lowest of entry level jobs in languages/frameworks that are becoming a commodity (rails in particular), but wont affect jobs outside of that too much. Many people switch careers (moving over to software sales, for example, or getting out of IT all together) after an entry level job, or become more specialized in different a subset of skills.

If bootcamp grads are "doing it right", they'll keep developing and evolving their skills.

Re: Web-Era Trade Schools, Feeding a Need for Code

#18

Post by shoover »

It sounds expensive, hectic, and really time-consuming, which raises concerns about the kinds of jobs that one should expect waiting at the end of the chute. I feel Lou H's comment: "Mostly they prove they can work insane hours for months on end."

Is that mainly how trade schools work, though? I've heard similar pictures of automotive and commercial pilot schools.

Re: Web-Era Trade Schools, Feeding a Need for Code

#19

Post by cheriot »

oftenwrong wrote: post #12
swalsh wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing about programmers though, is bad coders are actually job creators. Bad code bases require more and more resources to maintain (as entropy increases), until ultimately they hit that breaking point where you need to hire a bunch of contractors to rebuild it. Good code bases are built in a way that you can pay down technical debt while enhancing the product. I view programming as more of an art then a science,…

Are those job opportunities you want? For me, maintaining poorly-written code bases is not enjoyable.

Screw the maintenance, but I don't mind being the one to do the rewrite. By then they won't see programmer salaries as a place to pinch pennies.

Re: Web-Era Trade Schools, Feeding a Need for Code

#20

Post by w1ntermute »

mgirdley wrote: post #16
loudin wrote: post #10

My gut reaction is that these boot camps are fueling some employment at early-stage start-ups because the graduates are far less expensive than more seasoned developers and the code they write is probably okay enough for a short while. Why would larger tech companies hire from this pool? I would imagine that there are enough CS grads in the market for them already. Does anyone here hire graduates from these schools?…

If you look at the open dev job postings, experienced developers are where the shortage is. Companies hire bootcamp graduates to take workload off of the experienced (3+ yrs) developers plates. Interestingly enough, if you look at job postings you'll also see that a disproportionate number of job listings want 3-5 yrs experience. Companies want people who someone else has trained for 3 years but don't want to pay the…

Yeah, they all want 3-5 years experience, but they're more than willing to hire someone with less once they realize that someone with 3-5 years experience is probably not available at the salary they're willing to offer.
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