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The fatal attraction of lead

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Re: The fatal attraction of lead

#51

Post by masklinn »

frik wrote: post #45

The european union (EU) banned lead gasoline in 2000 (~ 2005 "lead free"), USA already in 1978. Many airplanes can still legally use lead fuel. source (german): http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motorenbenzin#Verbleites_Benzin

> The european union (EU) banned lead gasoline in 2000 (~ 2005 "lead free"), USA already in 1978.

These dates are to completely different events.

The US started phasing out leaded gas in the mid-70s (the EPA announced its first regs in 1975, effective 1978) but didn't complete the phaseout until 1996.

The EU did start and complete its phaseout later (starting in 1981, in part because of the resistance of some members e.g. France) but a few member states did so much earlier (Germany started phasing out leaded in 1972 and had completed its phaseout by 1988).

Re: The fatal attraction of lead

#52

Post by jacobolus »

cmatteri wrote: post #27

The use of leaded paint indoors and of leaded gasoline were particularly dangerous, but there are still numerous potential sources of lead exposure, especially in certain industries, but also for the average person. Exposure has decreased, but the safe blood lead level has also been reduced as we become increasingly aware of the harms of sub-clinical lead poisoning. Two interesting properties of lead's toxicity that…

Beyond the sibling comments about the flux being the nasty part of solder, and the part in solder fumes that are hard to avoid breathing at least a bit of when soldering, eutectic leaded solder is soo much nicer to use than the lead-free stuff. It melts at a lower temperature, and melts/hardens all at once, making it dramatically easier to avoid bad solder joints. In particular, lead-free solder will really make you despise a cheap soldering iron.

But yeah, be careful and don’t eat solder flakes, and wash hands after soldering.

Re: The fatal attraction of lead

#53

Post by techdragon »

rodgerd wrote: post #37
kirsebaer wrote: post #14

Lead paint and lead gasoline are shocking examples of corporate misbehavior. Interior lead paint was banned in many European countries by the 1920s because of the obvious health risks. But in the US the lead manufactures responded to health concerns with "Dutch Boy" lead paint, deliberately marketed to appear safe enough for a child to use. They actually had advertising campaigns promoting lead paint for childrens' t…

> The health risks of leaded gasoline were also obvious to many, and ethanol was known as a safe alternative anti-knock additive in the 1920s. FTA: "Midgley spent months plagued by the effects of lead poisoning. GM's ethyl plant in New Jersey, meanwhile, was forced to close after several workers went mad and some died. The press renamed ethyl "looney gas". " And yet it continued to be used for decades. A lesson, I gu…

Lookup how he died and you may feel a little more Karmically Balanced

Re: The fatal attraction of lead

#54

Post by teddyh »

mturmon wrote: post #47
notastartup wrote: post #21

The crime rate correlation with lead tainted gasoline is fascinating. Could it be that in lower socioeconomic areas have older cars that produces lead in to the air, and the population ends up breathing a lot of it?

You have been downvoted, but you have a point. In the 1970s, you could buy both leaded and unleaded gas at service stations. New cars used unleaded gas, but old ones "required" leaded for various reasons that turned out to be mostly wrong ( http://www.stevelinden.com/unleaded-gas-vs-regular-gas-in-cl... ). Unleaded was required to work with the catalytic converters that were newly required in cars. Regular leaded gas…

“It’s the model made before catalytic converters, so it’ll run good on regular gas. Whaddaya say, is it the new bluesmobile or what?”

— Elwood Blues, 1980, The Blues Brothers

Re: The fatal attraction of lead

#55

Post by willyt »

badsock wrote: post #44
decktech wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From what I was told, lead-free solder has a large amount of flux in it to make it half-way usable. Unless you're licking your fingers after soldering with leaded solder, you may be doing more damage to your lungs with the lead-free stuff than you're doing to your body with the leaded. But I'd love to see the numbers on this.

I've looked into this, but I'm torn. In my mind the most compelling arguments against lead-free are: of the studies of factory workers who work every day with lead/tin solder, they couldn't find elevated blood lead levels; and that the fluxes in lead-free solders are both more exotic (i.e. less studied for adverse health effects) and a greater proportion of the solder. The danger of absorbed lead is clear, but it's n…

The EU regulation is about preventing lead contamination of the waste stream.

Re: The fatal attraction of lead

#56

Post by dredmorbius »

GhotiFish wrote: post #28

You know, we really ought to rename Tantalum->Lead, and Lead->Tantalum. Can someone clarify what the last part of the article was saying? In some hotspots - downwind from old smelters, or where miners dumped their spoils - it can be as high as 3%. Does that seriously mean you could scoop a handful of dirt and 3% of that would be lead?!

Given that that's probably percentage by weight, and the density of lead itself, possibly.

Re: The fatal attraction of lead

#57

Post by shawabawa3 »

mikeash wrote: post #34
Spooky23 wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lead pipes are very common in american cities for connecting residential service lines to water mains. Lead flux was also commonly used to seal drain pipes.

I'd thought that lead water pipes were safe due to mineral buildup that shields them, but apparently this is not universally the case. Quoth Wikipedia: "Unlike other parts of the world where lead pipes cause poisoning, the Roman water had so much calcium in it, that a layer of plaque prevented the water contacting the lead itself."

The article mentions that it's safe (relatively?) with hard water, but not with soft water

Re: The fatal attraction of lead

#58

Post by tobinfricke »

dghughes wrote: post #16
gsnedders wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A large proportion of piston-powered aircraft are relatively old — many are general aviation aircraft, and the hours put on the airframes are small compared with most commercial aircraft, so most predate the ban of leaded automotive fuel. There's a lot of resistance to changing anything around aviation, especially when it comes to engines. Many (or most?) piston-powered aircraft are single-engined aircraft, where a s…

Old being the key since the engines require lead for valve lubrication and most have a carburetor not fuel-injection so power is not as good as fuel-injected. Getting power out of a certain quantity of fuel is also a big plus since the 100 liters of leaded avgas you carry can take you 600km but unleaded maybe only 500km.

We have to weigh these benefits to (piston-powered) general aviation (mostly a hobby?) against toxifying the environment.

Frankly I don't think piston-powered GA is vital enough to our economy/society to justify such a long grace period on removing the leaded fuel.

If our Cessnas can't climb quite as fast or fly quite as far - that seems a very reasonable cost for removing a known potent neurotoxin from the environment.

Re: The fatal attraction of lead

#59

Post by ern »

As nasty as lead is, a few things make me wonder if some of the claims, particularly regarding low levels of lead and IQ, are on shaky ground. The Flynn Effect continued despite lead levels rising during the twentieth century. Now that lead has been eliminated, there should be clear increases in IQ- have these been found?

Re: The fatal attraction of lead

#60

Post by ern »

dctoedt wrote: post #3

I wonder if leaded gasoline is playing any kind of role in the continued unrest in the Middle East? FTA: Chronic lead exposure causes depression, headaches, aggression and memory loss. .... [M]any academics now believe leaded petrol was responsible for a global crime wave that peaked in the 1990s. ... Amazingly, a handful of countries - Iraq, Yemen, Burma, North Korea - continue to use leaded petrol.

I don't mean to sound glib, but the 2003 invasion of Iraq probably is a much bigger reason for the continued unrest in that country.

Syria isn't listed as using leaded gasoline, nor are Lebanon, Palestine, Israel, Bahrain, Libya or Tunisia, and yet all of these have some degree of unrest/instability/violence/civil war.

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