40,000 suicides annually, yet America simply shrugs • Hacker News Board

Re: 40,000 suicides annually, yet America simply shrugs

#91

Post by s_baby » Fri, Oct 10, 2014, 2:01 PM UTC

America shrugs because suicide is a problem effecting men. Men outnumber women in suicide between 3:1 and 10:1[1]. If the tables were turned you better believe you would hear about it. The NFL would wear pink ribbons to raise awareness. You would constantly see articles relating patriarchy and female suicide. But these people killing themselves are men. These people are privileged and therefore are not being driven by controllable outside factors into suicide like some marginalized group. This is why I find the term privilege getting thrown around so offensive. The problem isn't that it lacks validity(it has some). The problem is we're trying to build an inclusive society and calling someone privileged is now a way to marginalize the needs and perspectives of others.

1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_differences_in_suicide

Re: 40,000 suicides annually, yet America simply shrugs

#92

Post by JoeAltmaier » Fri, Oct 10, 2014, 2:19 PM UTC

lmz wrote: post #87

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Death is not really a zero. There's nobody left to do the measuring. Its more like a singularity? Its a curious notion that folks dwell on about what its like after death. How about - you won't be there? The question is nonsense.

Well maybe the words chosen are wrong. I agree that there would be no "me" left to do the measuring. In death there would also be no "me" left to measure things and find it is negative either.

Right; so it can't be seen as a solution to suffering, right? Because you won't be suffering or not-suffering; you won't 'be' at all. Its not an answer, because the question is nonsensical at that point.

The only question worth considering is: how do I get from negative to positive? And the answer is: if the problem is external, then change your situation (move to Mexico; change your name; go plant potatoes in Idaho; whatever). If its internal, harder. You have to change yourself.

Re: 40,000 suicides annually, yet America simply shrugs

#93

Post by mkr-hn » Fri, Oct 10, 2014, 2:48 PM UTC

imaginenore wrote: post #8

bruceb wrote: post #5

"...the second-leading killer for those ages 15-34." I would have never guessed that. Now I can understand why some are trying to use social media to detect who might be expressing feeling that are common with depression and suicidal thoughts.

And these are mostly males. Life for males really improves after 30. Girls starting to hit on you a lot more, better jobs, more money, less stress.

I'm only interested in 3/4 of these, and they're not happening[1]. When does the magic spell activate?

[1] At least, not as fast as I'd like. Turns out we aren't all on the same path.

Re: 40,000 suicides annually, yet America simply shrugs

#94

Post by brazzy » Fri, Oct 10, 2014, 3:32 PM UTC

lhnz wrote: post #61

brazzy wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You seem to mix up three different points/views, which weakens your argument a lot: - The word "platitudes" and the scare quotes around "cure" indicate that blanket skepticism towards depression therapy of the kind I see from conspiracy nuts. You disqualify yourself from serious discussion that way. - "coping methods on how to deal with the facts of a sad and sorry life" indicates that you believe depression is cause…

I'm not mixing up three different points/views, I was trying to give a faithful description of my own depression?! My point was that I find the standard approach towards depression alienating because it completely discounts my own experiences. And as you neatly clarified, I disqualified myself from serious discussion of my own depression. I don't think I have a better solution than what already exists, but I'm trying…

OK, I apologize. Obviously it's wrong for me to disqualify you from discussion your own experience - but it seemed to me like you were generalizing your experience to apply to everyone else and claim that depression therapy is humbug, which is also wrong. As you say, "human experience can't be completely generalised".

A therapist who completely discounts external factors in treating depression seems to me rather incompetent. But then, external factors can and should be changed by direct actions. But a depressed patient may not have the will or energy to change them - in which case the problem really is the depression. Of course, if change to the external factor is truly not possible, then coping strategies is really all that can be done.

Re: 40,000 suicides annually, yet America simply shrugs

#95

Post by xkcd-sucks » Fri, Oct 10, 2014, 3:42 PM UTC

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #34

bproctor wrote: post #22

I probably have an unpopular opinion on this, but I feel that people who wish to commit suicide should not be prevented from doing so. By all means, if someone wants to get help or needs counseling they should be able to get it. But if in the end their choice is suicide, we should be making it easier for them, not harder. I think that if I ever wanted to commit suicide I would be less likely to seek counseling out of…

I think you're confusing or equalizing suicide with euthanasia; the former is, in this case, a mental issue triggered by chemical inbalances (which in turn are often due to external causes), and as the people that have been through depression can attest to, a temporary one. Suicide in that case can be listed as a temporary lapse in judgment. Euthanasia, on the other hand, is a conscious choice, often by the terminall…

I think you're confusing depression with temporary sadness. Depression is a terminal illness.

Re: 40,000 suicides annually, yet America simply shrugs

#96

Post by golgappi » Fri, Oct 10, 2014, 6:10 PM UTC

a8da6b0c91d wrote: post #78

barry-cotter wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I loathe your condescension. If someone wants to die and they still want to die a month later, let them. By what right do we force those who want to die to suffer a little longer? If it's their life why can't they end it if they will? You know what's not a terminal illness that is bad enough that many with it would welcome death? Schizophrenia. For some the medicine works, the side effects are acceptable, they can le…

> By what right You assume 100% self ownership of one's life, which I find silly. Society makes large investments in individuals and typically they have long term duties that cannot rightfully be abandoned.

> duties

We don't have a choice in being born, and we don't have a choice in dying either. This very thought alone can make quite a lot of people want to kill themselves.

The fact that society loses money and investment when a person dies is not the responsibility of the person. Society works the way it does without asking us for a say in it. Its been this way since ages, and will continue for ages. I as an individual cannot do anything to make society see me as non-existent. Or if I do, then this should be laid out as a series of steps. In this article, its mentioned the medical area loses $1 million per suicide, as if when I am in a state to kill myself I should feel guilty that I am 'owned' by society and by killing myself i will be 'stealing' from it. Pathetic.

Re: 40,000 suicides annually, yet America simply shrugs

#97

Post by golgappi » Fri, Oct 10, 2014, 6:17 PM UTC

shasta wrote: post #73

anigbrowl wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Regrettably this behavior appears to be protected by the first amendment, unless suicide itself is made illegal (as it used to be in many jurisdictions). A law criminalizing such behavior in Minnesota was reversed at appeal: http://blogs.wsj.com/law/2014/03/19/encouraging-suicide-isnt... and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Francis_Melchert-Dinkel I can't politely express my opinion about people like this.

Should they go kill themselves? Funny that the mental failings of the jumper evoke such sympathy and the mental failings of the "asshole" evoke such hatred.

the asshole isn't killing himself/herself.

Re: 40,000 suicides annually, yet America simply shrugs

#98

Post by revdinosaur » Fri, Oct 10, 2014, 6:37 PM UTC

imaginenore wrote: post #8

bruceb wrote: post #5

"...the second-leading killer for those ages 15-34." I would have never guessed that. Now I can understand why some are trying to use social media to detect who might be expressing feeling that are common with depression and suicidal thoughts.

And these are mostly males. Life for males really improves after 30. Girls starting to hit on you a lot more, better jobs, more money, less stress.

Interesting, is this true for males of all species or is it limited to human males?

Re: 40,000 suicides annually, yet America simply shrugs

#99

Post by _pslf » Fri, Oct 10, 2014, 6:53 PM UTC

a8da6b0c91d wrote: post #78

barry-cotter wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I loathe your condescension. If someone wants to die and they still want to die a month later, let them. By what right do we force those who want to die to suffer a little longer? If it's their life why can't they end it if they will? You know what's not a terminal illness that is bad enough that many with it would welcome death? Schizophrenia. For some the medicine works, the side effects are acceptable, they can le…

> By what right You assume 100% self ownership of one's life, which I find silly. Society makes large investments in individuals and typically they have long term duties that cannot rightfully be abandoned.

So it's not out of compassion that you'd want to talk anyone out of suicide, but because they owe you/society something?

Also consider the chances that someone who wants to kill himself isn't too pleased with what "society" did for/to him.

Re: 40,000 suicides annually, yet America simply shrugs

#100

Post by anigbrowl » Fri, Oct 10, 2014, 7:26 PM UTC

shasta wrote: post #73

anigbrowl wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Regrettably this behavior appears to be protected by the first amendment, unless suicide itself is made illegal (as it used to be in many jurisdictions). A law criminalizing such behavior in Minnesota was reversed at appeal: http://blogs.wsj.com/law/2014/03/19/encouraging-suicide-isnt... and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Francis_Melchert-Dinkel I can't politely express my opinion about people like this.

Should they go kill themselves? Funny that the mental failings of the jumper evoke such sympathy and the mental failings of the "asshole" evoke such hatred.

There's a significant qualitative difference between someone being self-destructive (albeit with traumatic consequences for those who are connected to them) and engineering the destruction of someone else.

There may be mental failings involved which are outside the control of the individual, but I don't think that's the whole story or we'd have to throw the idea of moral agency out the window (I picked the example I did because the person neither appeared nor claimed to suffer cognitive impairment AFAIK). We are actors as well as being acted upon by our environment and biology; insofar as our activities impact others, we have some responsibility to regulate them.