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Microsoft CEO says women need not ask for raise, should trust system

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Re: Microsoft CEO says women need not ask for raise, should trust system

#71

Post by mrxd »

neilellis wrote: post #25

The essential problem here is that we're still talking about men telling women what they need to do. Because, hey it's their problem. Let's just get it clear, it is all about what we (men) need to do. Slavery wasn't an African person's fault. Xenophobia isn't a problem for foreigners to sort out. There is nothing wrong with realising that we have a privilege over another group in society and making efforts to become…

> Let's just get it clear, it is all about what we (men) need to do.

There's wide disagreement about whether men should be getting involved in feminist projects. The concern is that men will dominate those as well.

The overwhelming majority of men wouldn't want to participate anyway, because they benefit from the way things are now.

Re: Microsoft CEO says women need not ask for raise, should trust system

#74

Post by neilellis »

mrxd wrote: post #71
neilellis wrote: post #25

The essential problem here is that we're still talking about men telling women what they need to do. Because, hey it's their problem. Let's just get it clear, it is all about what we (men) need to do. Slavery wasn't an African person's fault. Xenophobia isn't a problem for foreigners to sort out. There is nothing wrong with realising that we have a privilege over another group in society and making efforts to become…

> Let's just get it clear, it is all about what we (men) need to do. There's wide disagreement about whether men should be getting involved in feminist projects. The concern is that men will dominate those as well. The overwhelming majority of men wouldn't want to participate anyway, because they benefit from the way things are now.

To clarify: I'm saying it's our responsibility to change our behaviour. Inequality of any form is an imbalance of power, those who have been allocated or have taken greater power have I believe a moral imperative to re-balance the power as only they can return it without there being conflict.

For sure women can fight to take back their power, but it wouldn't be nicer for everyone if we (men) just gave it back?

Re: Microsoft CEO says women need not ask for raise, should trust system

#75

Post by jacalata »

general_failure wrote: post #56

Is there a complete transcript somewhere? Why are we all jumping to conclusions with no data? All this discussion seems pointless without enough information.

Because some of us watched it? There is a full video here [0] and a transcript of the specific question and answer here [1]

[0] http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/10/09/microsofts-nadella-... and

[1] http://techcrunch.com/2014/10/09/microsoft-ceo-opens-mouth-i...

Re: Microsoft CEO says women need not ask for raise, should trust system

#76

Post by neilellis »

yzzxy wrote: post #13

His response to the response: "Was inarticulate re how women should ask for raise. Our industry must close gender pay gap so a raise is not needed because of a bias #GHC14" https://twitter.com/satyanadella/status/520311425726566400

"Our industry must close gender pay gap so a raise is not needed because of a bias"

Which is a much better statement :-)

Re: Microsoft CEO says women need not ask for raise, should trust system

#77

Post by jasonisalive »

zxcvvcxz wrote: post #54
jacalata wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Partly. The other problem is that when they do negotiate the way men do, they tend to get far more negative reactions (like having the job offer withdrawn). http://www.cfa.harvard.edu/cfawis/bowles.pdf

Well there's a market solution for that too - keep looking for better work if you believe you're worth more. Eventually smart employers will see the ridiculousness of what's happening, and hire all the otherwise competent workers who are being discriminated against for no good reason.

This is the right answer, unfortunately most people are unfamiliar with or unwilling to trust this sort of logic, and so we end up with efforts to actively fight the problem with prescriptive regulation, which just make things worse. Society would be a lot better if more people could reason like you!

Re: Microsoft CEO says women need not ask for raise, should trust system

#78

Post by Im_Mr_Manager »

nickbauman wrote: post #62
anigbrowl wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It implies no such thing.

Just so I understand: what DOES the statement imply? Think of me as mentally deficient here and explain it like you'd explain it to an 8 year old.

He is saying that there should be no pay gap based on gender and if that were the case women would not need to ask for a raise to bring their salary up to the same as what a male in the same position would make.

Re: Microsoft CEO says women need not ask for raise, should trust system

#79

Post by mrxd »

neilellis wrote: post #74
mrxd wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Let's just get it clear, it is all about what we (men) need to do. There's wide disagreement about whether men should be getting involved in feminist projects. The concern is that men will dominate those as well. The overwhelming majority of men wouldn't want to participate anyway, because they benefit from the way things are now.

To clarify: I'm saying it's our responsibility to change our behaviour. Inequality of any form is an imbalance of power, those who have been allocated or have taken greater power have I believe a moral imperative to re-balance the power as only they can return it without there being conflict. For sure women can fight to take back their power, but it wouldn't be nicer for everyone if we (men) just gave it back?

I just don't think moral arguments are going to be persuasive. The fact is people like having power and they don't let go of it easily.

Re: Microsoft CEO says women need not ask for raise, should trust system

#80

Post by neilellis »

amaks wrote: post #72

Quartz: Microsoft CEO Satya Nadella, here’s the real definition of karma. http://google.com/newsstand/s/CBIwh9iU1ho

Fantastic, indeed Karma (or Kamma in the Pali) just means action.

The fruit of any action is of the same quality as the action itself. So indeed this infers that asking to have the same pay as a male colleague, or any colleague is in itself greed and that the fruit born from it would be of a similar type.

The Buddha I believe recommended that you never talk about the Kamma of another as it is usually just a way to hide a value judgement of someone else. Instead we should focus on what Kamma we take and therefore the type of fruits we'll experience in the future.

If this interests anybody - this is an excellent book on the subject: https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web...

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