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Trouble at the Koolaid Point

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Re: Trouble at the Koolaid Point

#241

Post by golemotron »

mrexroad wrote: post #238
golemotron wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not my argument. My argument is that there is inherent good in providing space for all opinions. That's what liberal democracy is about. Reddit gets to choose whether it will be one of those platforms and it looks like they have. You can boycott Reddit for that choice but why not boycott the US for permitting speech you disagree with too?

Because real-life harassment isn't protected by first amendment. A large part of the problem is people, like you, who view all of this as someone just expressing their opinion equally with others. That has nothing to do with targeted harassment and death threats to one's family. In real life, people get prosecuted for this stuff. Unfortunately there's so many obstacles and hurdles to prosecuting Internet harassment t…

I'm not sure what you think I was saying. What I was saying was that I'm okay with Reddit not shutting down subreddits. What happened to Kathy was horrible and I don't condone it. But, while whack-a-mole-ing on the internet may make people feel better it doesn't fix the problem. Shutting down forums is a copout.

Re: Trouble at the Koolaid Point

#242

Post by golemotron »

tedks wrote: post #228
golemotron wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is no inherent good in providing space for all opinions. Free speech is not an end in itself, but rather a means. You are confusing the two. No, I'm pretty sure that free speech is an end in itself. It's how we as humans maintain our integrity in a social context. That's why it's seen as a basic right. In any case, I have no problem with the fact that you disagree with me on that and I have enough basic respe…

Actually, white nationalists and other racist groups depend on liberals like you allowing them a platform to appear like a legitimate alternative in the political system. They use that legitimacy to attract new members, and there's a bright line from that to violence to Kristallnacht. Europeans understand this, which is why they've outlawed Nazism. It's to express as a society that such a thing is not acceptable. By…

> Europeans understand this, which is why they've outlawed Nazism. It's to express as a society that such a thing is not acceptable. By expressing that it is acceptable, you are participating tacitly.

If you live in the US you're clearly in the wrong country.

> I think that you sell your integrity away by capitalizing on your privilege and oppressing people, either actively and directly, by being a nazi; actively and indirectly

Zero to Godwin's Law in, what? Two posts. Goodbye.

Re: Trouble at the Koolaid Point

#243

Post by DanBC »

verroq wrote: post #227
DanBC wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While those users are creating and posting dog porn they are of low value to me. They're creating noise not signal; consuming resources; and creating negative brand associations. By asking them to take their dog porn elsewhere I risk losing them altogether (which currently isn't much loss) or they start posting other content.

>They're creating noise not signal Signal to people who care. "They shouldn't be posting X because I don't like X" sounds extremely entitled to me. "They are damaging the brand value of the site" which has nothing to do with you. When I criticise Apple (and you use Apple products), there is no need to take it personally.

A company is free to care about users who want dog porn. That company should not be surprised when other users, or advertisers, steer clear of that company or its brand.

Re: Trouble at the Koolaid Point

#244

Post by zyx321 »

ijk wrote: post #234
Mithaldu wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's the exact opposite in fact. The original article is about trolls making up lies and victims having little recourse. The lie in this case is "Zoe traded sex for press coverage". Kain explains how there is no basis for this claim whatsoever ("the initial concerns were quickly proven to be all smoke and no fire") and then goes on to explain how, despite being based on nothing, this managed to blow up anyhow by ever…

Well, Kain's article is a description of the exact kind of harassment campaign described in the original article. So the first sense I meant is that the contents of the article are the exact thing talked about. For the DMCA: "unverifiable" is probably a better description than "unsourced", but the part I wanted to highlight was how this whole thing followed the exact playbook described in Kathy Sierra's essay. Second…

So just let me just get this right...

You believe that an article that describes both sides' claims without judging either is "harassment" and that instead of something that "can be used [...] against either side" we should be looking at articles and authors that are directly and openly associated with Kotaku/Gawker or Polygon/Vox for a more "even-handed" look?

Is that correct?

Re: Trouble at the Koolaid Point

#245

Post by zimpenfish »

zyx321 wrote: post #176
ijk wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh look, an example of the exact thing the original article is talking about, down to the unsourced accusations of DMCA takedowns for censorship.

It's not really "unsourced." MundaneMatt did post a screenshot of the takedown notice he received. (EDIT: It's linked in the article, of course. Just in case anyone didn't find it because they didn't actually read the article.) Of course the request itself looks incredibly fake (not even bothering to capitalize her name), so who the hell knows where it came from? In any case, the controversy isn't really about Zoe an…

What I don't get is why no-one is slamming Gjoni for being a classless dickhead in the first place - sure, there's descriptions of "jilted ex" and whatnot but where's the condemnation and outrage about his actions?

(I know, I know, he's a guy and it's A-OK. Bleh.)

Re: Trouble at the Koolaid Point

#246

Post by tomp »

DanBC wrote: post #127
tomp wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That's a weird choice to make - in the name of freedom of expression we're going to create an environment that is ridiculously hostile to large numbers of people to make sure they can't express their opinions. So you're suggestion that instead, in the name of safety, we should create an environment that is ridiculously hostile to large numbers of people (banning them) to make sure they can't express their opinions?

> So you're suggestion that instead, in the name of safety, we should create an environment that is ridiculously hostile to large numbers of people (banning them) to make sure they can't express their opinions? If their opinion is "You should die you stupid fucking cunt" or "I'm going to find you and rape you and then kill you" then yes, ban those people. "I'd do a lot worse than rape you. I've just got out of prison…

> I find it fucking baffling that you chose to defend those people, the people saying stuff like that, at the cost of their victims.

Oh well, I find it weird that you're twisting my words so much, but I won't insult your intelligence because of it.

Anyways, I don't defend those people - I think they're morons, I would shame them, etc. (I would defend them in court, though, unless they actually (physically) harm anyone - because freedom of speech).

The problem is (1) banning/censorship is a slippery slope, and will inevitably results in censoring some inconvenient truth, and (2) it doesn't work, because the trolls can just make a new account. IMO, personal filters that each user can activate and tune to their desire (akin email spam filters) would work much better.

Re: Trouble at the Koolaid Point

#247

Post by Argorak »

DanBC wrote: post #181
Argorak wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's pretty hard to learn moderation. There are almost no good resources and you have to learn through failure and reflection. (I've been moderating bulletin boards for 15 years)

Meatball wiki has a lot of great information. The trolling stuff, and makin things unfun and uninteresting are useful. The stuff about vested contributors and concern trolls are pretty good too. http://meatballwiki.org/wiki/VestedContributor http://meatballwiki.org/wiki/TrollingTactic

Thank you!

Re: Trouble at the Koolaid Point

#248

Post by zyx321 »

zimpenfish wrote: post #245
zyx321 wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not really "unsourced." MundaneMatt did post a screenshot of the takedown notice he received. (EDIT: It's linked in the article, of course. Just in case anyone didn't find it because they didn't actually read the article.) Of course the request itself looks incredibly fake (not even bothering to capitalize her name), so who the hell knows where it came from? In any case, the controversy isn't really about Zoe an…

What I don't get is why no-one is slamming Gjoni for being a classless dickhead in the first place - sure, there's descriptions of "jilted ex" and whatnot but where's the condemnation and outrage about his actions? (I know, I know, he's a guy and it's A-OK. Bleh.)

Because it doesn't fit into anyone's narrative.

Pro-Zoey - You really don't wanna bring up any legitimate criticism of her when you could be playing up the victim narrative.

Anti-Zoey (AKA mysoginists) - The man is obviously a hero for giving that bitch what-for.

Pro-Journalistic-Integrity - Who the fuck is Zoey Quinn, and why can't people shut up about her?

So while he may be a classless dickhead, he's not high on anyone's agenda. Nobody in the trenches cares about Gavrilo Princip.

Re: Trouble at the Koolaid Point

#249

Post by cbd1984 »

tedks wrote: post #239
mkr-hn wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where are the violent neo-Nazis? Where are the Baptists going out gaybashing after Sunday service? I don't see it. You said a lot of airy, high-minded things without actually supporting your position.

In France, lighting fires outside synagogues and chanting "Jews to the gas": http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/aug/07/antisemitism-... On the Mexican-American border with assault weapons, picking off migrant workers trying to find work: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minuteman_Civil_Defense_Corps In Greece, leading a prominent political party: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Dawn_%28political_party... And i…

> And in America, dressed as police, shooting any black man they care to.

False equivalence is a wonderful thing, isn't it?

Re: Trouble at the Koolaid Point

#250

Post by cbd1984 »

phkahler wrote: post #169
peterwwillis wrote: post #139

Couple of comments: 1. I know of weev from hacker circles. He really is this douchetastic. But what's really insane to me is that there's a bunch of women in the hacker scene who adore him . I couldn't quite understand it, until I saw them also adore Adrian Lamo, and so my theory is very close to Kathy's here: hero worship distorts reality. In order to stop people from enabling abusive trolls like this, someone has t…

>> mechanism. And here's my opinion that will probably get me downvoted into hell: there is no way to stop this, other than leaving the internet. What about ending anonymity? Much as I like the idea of remaining annoymous online (not that I am here), there are legal means to deal with the extreme end of the trolling spectrum so long as you can identify them. The next issue that pops up of course is privacy. We need t…

> What about ending anonymity?

Congratulations, now you've opened up a lot of trans, gay, and other minority-status people to endless physical harassment every time they use the Internet in their preferred personae.

> We need to end anonymity while making privacy the default.

The only way I can understand this is if it's like the postal service without postcards: Senders and recipients are known, but message contents aren't. This... works, I suppose, but it removes nearly all the benefits the Internet provides.

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