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India, U.S. Agree to Joint Exploration of Mars

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Re: India, U.S. Agree to Joint Exploration of Mars

#61

Post by sillysaurus3 »

chc wrote: post #57
sillysaurus3 wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was probably a terrible mistake to try to seek answers on a forum regarding political matters. Apologies. I would argue there are real, important differences in the points you called out as equivalent (or near-equivalent). Which points did I say were equivalent? I said no such thing. I was saying, "I have no clue what I'm talking about, and I have no clue what life in China is like, so please correct me." But sinc…

I think the problem is partly that your question reads and functions a lot like trolling. Asking the difference between a democratic power and China is pretty strange in itself (the Chinese government famously drew this distinction pretty clearly when it killed hundreds of people for advocating democracy in Tiananmen Square in 1989) — and then in the last sentence of your question, you seem to acknowledge that you do…

Thanks for the feedback. It's extremely frustrating to try to ask innocent questions on HN, especially with the influx of people who enjoy lording themselves and their own personal expertise over people who have admitted ignorance and are here to seek knowledge. Given my lack of knowledge, the only way I can hope to try to formulate a precise question is to "throw myself out there" and attempt to do so. That, of course, results in stupid questions and statements, but that was the entire point: to correct the stupidity and not live with it.

Re: India, U.S. Agree to Joint Exploration of Mars

#62

Post by anigbrowl »

sillysaurus3 wrote: post #10
Naritai wrote: post #7

While I'm a big supporter of international co-operation, remember that the US has been striking a number of technical deals with India, as a part of a long-term political investment in bringing up a large democratic power to balance China. I think this has as much to do with that goal as it does with sharing technical information.

I have a dumb question. What's a large democratic power, and how does it differ from China? I'm not implying China is in any way democratic, but rather inviting someone to further explain what the goal of the US is. Is it likely that this is simply empire expansion rather than an altruistic goal of balancing China? Mainly I'm just wondering what the concerns might be if a large democratic power (and I'd still like to…

What's a large democratic power

India is indisputably a democratic country, not withstanding its developing status or struggles with corruption; they just ran what is probably the largest general election in history a few months back, followed by a smooth transfer of power.

It's also large, because it has a population of 1.25 billion people, close to China's 1.36 billion people. And it's a power because it has nuclear weapons, although it is unfortunately not a signatory to the nuclear non-proliferation treaty.

Forgive my ignorance. I probably should have taught myself these things long ago rather than invested all of my time in programming and other pursuits.

Don't be obtuse. Not everything is code for something else. If you think the US's motives here are really empire expansion then fair enough - I don't really agree but I can certainly see why you might think so. But asking what 'large democratic power' means, without bothering to consider the possibility of it being a simple literal description, seems disingenuous.

Re: India, U.S. Agree to Joint Exploration of Mars

#63

Post by john_b »

falsestprophet wrote: post #39
Naritai wrote: post #7

While I'm a big supporter of international co-operation, remember that the US has been striking a number of technical deals with India, as a part of a long-term political investment in bringing up a large democratic power to balance China. I think this has as much to do with that goal as it does with sharing technical information.

"Remember" that people on the internet state their opinion as fact without substantiating that opinion with facts. The parent comment, which at this time is the #1 comment, does not contribute to understanding why the United States and India made this agreement.

I wouldn't go that far. Naritai offered a possible motive for this deal which might not be obvious without the context provided by his/her comment (the part about the recent technical collaboration is true, and not just an opinion). That's one of the useful functions of internet comments.

Re: India, U.S. Agree to Joint Exploration of Mars

#64

Post by ZenoArrow »

danielweber wrote: post #49
teamonkey wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> On the other hand, "international cooperation" is often the death of many projects, particularly space projects. There are plenty of counter-examples. The ISS is an effort that spans the US, Canada, Japan, Russia and Europe (ESA). Hubble is NASA-ESA.

Why is that a counter-example? The ISS is incredibly more expensive, complicated, and accomplishes less science because it's "international."

"The ISS is incredibly more expensive, complicated, and accomplishes less science because it's "international.""

Accomplishes less compared to what? Skylab? Mir?

The ISS is designed to host up to 7 crew members. For purposes of comparison, Mir could host 3. What makes you suspect 7 astronauts can do less scientific work than 3?

Re: India, U.S. Agree to Joint Exploration of Mars

#65

Post by hackuser »

Karunamon wrote: post #33
shas3 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are implicitly assuming somehow they don't currently 'play by NASA rules (and NASA-level) standards.' Any evidence that this is so?

Aren't NASA-level standards historically slow and inefficient? I was of the impression that private parties streamlining that process and coming up with a cheaper program is what led to NASA (or congress by proxy, whatever) abandoning manned spaceflight to the private sector. In other words, maybe India is taking a leaf from SpaceX's book rather than NASA's

> Aren't NASA-level standards historically slow and inefficient?

I've seen nothing that tells me that this reputation is anything more than 1) the bureaucracy inherent to any large organization, 2) requirements of very complex, cutting edge engineering and science, 3) requirements of engineering systems that must work perfectly the first time (unlike Facebook, NASA can't 'move fast and break things'), and perhaps most of all 4) the public's habit of attributing characteristics to 'the old established thing' (NASA) and to the 'new shiny thing' (SpaceX, etc.)

Name every place in the solar system where NASA missions currently are located. Outside the solar system? Where they have gone historically? Their achievements are staggering; history-making events are routine; they are by far the greatest explorers in the history of humanity. Certainly they aren't perfect and every organization can improve, but they do pretty well.

> I was of the impression that private parties streamlining that process and coming up with a cheaper program is what led to NASA (or congress by proxy, whatever) abandoning manned spaceflight to the private sector.

Manned spaceflight hasn't been delegated to the private sector, only flying to Earth orbit (or only low-Earth orbit?). NASA has been doing it for 50 years; the technology is mature enough that private companies can do it and NASA can invest its resources in bigger challenges, including a manned mission to Mars (in the long term).

Re: India, U.S. Agree to Joint Exploration of Mars

#67

Post by falsestprophet »

anigbrowl wrote: post #59
falsestprophet wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Remember" that people on the internet state their opinion as fact without substantiating that opinion with facts. The parent comment, which at this time is the #1 comment, does not contribute to understanding why the United States and India made this agreement.

Anyone who pays attention to international affairs knows that the US has been seeking a rapprochement with India; Prime Minister Modi just had his first meeting with President Obama the other day. Meanwhile, the US has been at odds with China over its ballooning territorial claims in the South China Sea, to the point of possibly terminating the ban on arms sales to Viet Nam. I don't think the GP needs to provide cita…

Here we go again.

Opinion: Anyone who pays attention to international affairs knows that the US has been seeking a rapprochement with India

Unconvincing evidence: The President met with the President of India. Mr. Obama also met with the mayor of Gary, Indiana yesterday.

It is easy to acquire incomplete current affairs knowledge.

You are attributing the United States motivation to counter China to claims to the South China sea. I can think of dozens of other sources of friction between these countries that also contribute: human rights, intellectual property protection, hacking of US government computers, hacking of US corporation computers, influence in SE Asia, influence in Africa, claims in the East China sea, support of North Korea, support of Iran, support of Assad, climate policy, trade imbalance, nuclear proliferation, etc.

But, some claims in the South East China sea are the reason the US is partnering with India on the space program? Not supported by facts.

Why pollute Hacker News with unsubstantiated opinions or worse half backed (more like 1/128 baked) analysis?

Re: India, U.S. Agree to Joint Exploration of Mars

#68

Post by cjensen »

suprgeek wrote: post #41

Exciting news but is it an unqualified positive for both? Sometimes Constraints are what drives breakthrough innovations. India's ability to Manage Significant space exploration programmes on a Shoe string budget is driven in part by the need to innovate on a "ShoeString" budget. What we as a race desperately need is low cost access to Space - which perhaps may not become such a priority if NASA is allowed to influen…

NASA had a "go cheap" program to try crazy stuff on a shoestring that just might work. There were good results like Pathfinder ($150M) which tried the crazy idea of landing using an airbag.

The problem is that the Powers That Be were not understanding about the failures inherent in trying crazy ideas out. So we went back to expensive spacecraft which were less likely to fail.

Re: India, U.S. Agree to Joint Exploration of Mars

#69

Post by arjie »

falsestprophet wrote: post #67
anigbrowl wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anyone who pays attention to international affairs knows that the US has been seeking a rapprochement with India; Prime Minister Modi just had his first meeting with President Obama the other day. Meanwhile, the US has been at odds with China over its ballooning territorial claims in the South China Sea, to the point of possibly terminating the ban on arms sales to Viet Nam. I don't think the GP needs to provide cita…

Here we go again. Opinion: Anyone who pays attention to international affairs knows that the US has been seeking a rapprochement with India Unconvincing evidence: The President met with the President of India. Mr. Obama also met with the mayor of Gary, Indiana yesterday. It is easy to acquire incomplete current affairs knowledge. You are attributing the United States motivation to counter China to claims to the South…

I feel that you're right. These analyses seem somewhat facile.

Re: India, U.S. Agree to Joint Exploration of Mars

#70

Post by greedo »

fillskills wrote: post #38
brd wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had written something similar but you put it much more succinctly. The only things I'd add to this explanation 1) Democracy is the US rallying cry, our allies are more defensible when we do so in the name of democracy. 2) The powers that be are highly adept at manipulating a voting population so making an ally a democracy will likely turn it into a predictable/manipulable Plutocracy of sorts. *fixed implication tha…

Something to note regarding recent US and Indian history - During the cold war, India supported Russia (Not much of real support, mostly supporting in words and buying technology from Russia in turn). So US ended up supporting Pakistan and China. Pakistan continuously tried different ways to discourage India's development. Not sure if all that had any major effect on the cold war, but it certainly had serious repercu…

Russia is still a huge partner in Indian military procurement. Whether it's the Brahmos missile or the T50 fighter, Russia still has incredible influence in India.
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