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India, U.S. Agree to Joint Exploration of Mars

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Re: India, U.S. Agree to Joint Exploration of Mars

#31

Post by sillysaurus3 »

refurb wrote: post #30
sillysaurus3 wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

More like there are a billion of them, and I'm sure they see us as morally inferior, just as you see them. I'm here to understand the issues and make my own decision. Haven't you ever wondered about something that you knew nothing about? How would you learn about it other than reading and asking questions? I have no idea how you concluded that I might be trolling, especially after I both admitted ignorance and asked…

I get the sense that you're approaching this as "neither system is perfect, so they are equivalent"? In other words, since you could get shot by a cop in the US even though you did nothing wrong, that means American is no better than ISIS who massacres thousands of innocent civilians? I would argue there are real, important differences in the points you called out as equivalent (or near-equivalent).

It was probably a terrible mistake to try to seek answers on a forum regarding political matters. Apologies.

I would argue there are real, important differences in the points you called out as equivalent (or near-equivalent).

Which points did I say were equivalent? I said no such thing. I was saying, "I have no clue what I'm talking about, and I have no clue what life in China is like, so please correct me."

But since I've said that multiple times and it's still not getting across, I think it's better for HN if everyone would just ignore my chain of comments.

Re: India, U.S. Agree to Joint Exploration of Mars

#32

Post by JonnieCache »

mturmon wrote: post #27
danielweber wrote: post #2

On one hand, this could be really encouraging, allowing India to increase its home-grown engineering capacity. On the other hand, "international cooperation" is often the death of many projects, particularly space projects. On the other other hand, it wasn't like NASA was about to do something huge and cooperation with India puts that goal at risk.

...it wasn't like NASA was about to do something huge and cooperation with India puts that goal at risk... Your nested counterfactuals are a little hard to unpack, but if I understand you correctly, it is somewhat the contrary, at least with NISAR. (Oops, I added another counterfactual.) NASA was about to NOT do something huge and the collaboration enabled it happen. That is, before it became NISAR, the Earth-observi…

>Desdyni

That is the ugliest project name I've ever seen. It beats any disemvoweled SV startup into a cocked hat. I'm not surprised it almost got cancelled.

Re: India, U.S. Agree to Joint Exploration of Mars

#33

Post by Karunamon »

shas3 wrote: post #22
peeters wrote: post #16

This is exciting but makes me nervous. India is re-imagining "space travel on a budget", but if all of a sudden they have to play by NASA's rules and standards, their ability to innovate at low cost might be hampered. Hopefully whatever form of cooperation they come up with lets India continue to operate mostly independently.

You are implicitly assuming somehow they don't currently 'play by NASA rules (and NASA-level) standards.' Any evidence that this is so?

Aren't NASA-level standards historically slow and inefficient? I was of the impression that private parties streamlining that process and coming up with a cheaper program is what led to NASA (or congress by proxy, whatever) abandoning manned spaceflight to the private sector.

In other words, maybe India is taking a leaf from SpaceX's book rather than NASA's

Re: India, U.S. Agree to Joint Exploration of Mars

#34

Post by peeters »

shas3 wrote: post #22
peeters wrote: post #16

This is exciting but makes me nervous. India is re-imagining "space travel on a budget", but if all of a sudden they have to play by NASA's rules and standards, their ability to innovate at low cost might be hampered. Hopefully whatever form of cooperation they come up with lets India continue to operate mostly independently.

You are implicitly assuming somehow they don't currently 'play by NASA rules (and NASA-level) standards.' Any evidence that this is so?

I'm not disparaging the quality of India's space program. I'm more saying that once you bring NASA into the picture there's the potential of inheriting 70 years worth of engineering requirements and process which could be detrimental to a fledgling space program.

Edit: And you added the "NASA-level" which put words in my mouth that I did not say nor mean. I meant what I said: "NASA's standards"; standards that NASA has developed for their programs and contractors, which may or may not be beneficial for India's space program.

Re: India, U.S. Agree to Joint Exploration of Mars

#35

Post by manojlds »

brd wrote: post #29
pdx wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Substitute "large democratic power to balance China" with "large power to balance China", and I think it makes more sense. U.S. foreign policy seems to be to hinder the expansion of other large powers in an attempt to keep them small enough to not be an existential threat at some point in the far future. You send money and aid to whom ever is in a position to hinder those who are growing too powerful, whether the gro…

I had written something similar but you put it much more succinctly. The only things I'd add to this explanation 1) Democracy is the US rallying cry, our allies are more defensible when we do so in the name of democracy. 2) The powers that be are highly adept at manipulating a voting population so making an ally a democracy will likely turn it into a predictable/manipulable Plutocracy of sorts. *fixed implication tha…

"Make" India a democracy?

Re: India, U.S. Agree to Joint Exploration of Mars

#36

Post by lnkmails »

brd wrote: post #29
pdx wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Substitute "large democratic power to balance China" with "large power to balance China", and I think it makes more sense. U.S. foreign policy seems to be to hinder the expansion of other large powers in an attempt to keep them small enough to not be an existential threat at some point in the far future. You send money and aid to whom ever is in a position to hinder those who are growing too powerful, whether the gro…

I had written something similar but you put it much more succinctly. The only things I'd add to this explanation 1) Democracy is the US rallying cry, our allies are more defensible when we do so in the name of democracy. 2) The powers that be are highly adept at manipulating a voting population so making an ally a democracy will likely turn it into a predictable/manipulable Plutocracy of sorts. *fixed implication tha…

I just want to remind everyone that India is already a democracy and has been like that ever since her Independence from British colonialism. In general, I can understand the speculation that US is pushing money to India to balance China. US's perception of India has changed recently after their unsuccessful collaboration attempts with Pakistan. But in this particular case, I think the successful launch of a Mars orbiter at a budget price is a story that NASA would like to emulate too. I don't see political motivations behind this collaboration.

Re: India, U.S. Agree to Joint Exploration of Mars

#37

Post by shas3 »

peeters wrote: post #34
shas3 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are implicitly assuming somehow they don't currently 'play by NASA rules (and NASA-level) standards.' Any evidence that this is so?

I'm not disparaging the quality of India's space program. I'm more saying that once you bring NASA into the picture there's the potential of inheriting 70 years worth of engineering requirements and process which could be detrimental to a fledgling space program. Edit: And you added the "NASA-level" which put words in my mouth that I did not say nor mean. I meant what I said: "NASA's standards"; standards that NASA h…

Thanks for the clarification. I apologize for adding 'NASA-level'. I did parenthesize it, though. Also, since 'standards' are usually intended to ensure quality, I assumed that you were implying that the Indian space program may not be up to it.

Re: India, U.S. Agree to Joint Exploration of Mars

#38

Post by fillskills »

brd wrote: post #29
pdx wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Substitute "large democratic power to balance China" with "large power to balance China", and I think it makes more sense. U.S. foreign policy seems to be to hinder the expansion of other large powers in an attempt to keep them small enough to not be an existential threat at some point in the far future. You send money and aid to whom ever is in a position to hinder those who are growing too powerful, whether the gro…

I had written something similar but you put it much more succinctly. The only things I'd add to this explanation 1) Democracy is the US rallying cry, our allies are more defensible when we do so in the name of democracy. 2) The powers that be are highly adept at manipulating a voting population so making an ally a democracy will likely turn it into a predictable/manipulable Plutocracy of sorts. *fixed implication tha…

Something to note regarding recent US and Indian history - During the cold war, India supported Russia (Not much of real support, mostly supporting in words and buying technology from Russia in turn). So US ended up supporting Pakistan and China. Pakistan continuously tried different ways to discourage India's development.

Not sure if all that had any major effect on the cold war, but it certainly had serious repercussions in current Middle East wars and soured US relationships with India.

With China and Russia as a threat now, US may be trying to appease India to balance out the powers here. Plus India no longer closely associates with Russia.

Seperately, India is trying to stand up on its own feet with a strong economic growth and there is political and public will to support India's growth with the rise of Modi, AAP and the young educated/worldly generation.

Re: India, U.S. Agree to Joint Exploration of Mars

#39

Post by falsestprophet »

Naritai wrote: post #7

While I'm a big supporter of international co-operation, remember that the US has been striking a number of technical deals with India, as a part of a long-term political investment in bringing up a large democratic power to balance China. I think this has as much to do with that goal as it does with sharing technical information.

"Remember" that people on the internet state their opinion as fact without substantiating that opinion with facts.

The parent comment, which at this time is the #1 comment, does not contribute to understanding why the United States and India made this agreement.

Re: India, U.S. Agree to Joint Exploration of Mars

#40

Post by ximeng »

sillysaurus3 wrote: post #26
andrewljohnson wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am aware of the textbook definition of "democracy," "republic," etc, but it seems like those names are more of a flag for people to fight under than a definition for a state of being in the modern era You seem to be assigning moral equivalence to democracy and Chinese communism/totalitarianism. If you aren't just trolling, then differences include the right to travel, the right to free speech, the right to read the…

More like there are a billion of them, and I'm sure they see us as morally inferior, just as you see them. I'm here to understand the issues and make my own decision. Haven't you ever wondered about something that you knew nothing about? How would you learn about it other than reading and asking questions? I have no idea how you concluded that I might be trolling, especially after I both admitted ignorance and asked…

Your "Right to free speech" and "Right to read the internet uncensored" are quite closely connected. China actively restricts social media at a government / policy level much more aggressively than is done in western countries.

Regarding right to travel - there are problems in China with internal migrants not getting the rights that locals get. For example, if someone moves to a new city for economic opportunity then they may find it difficult qualifying for education for their children (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hukou_system#Effect_on_rural_w...). There are restrictions on some government officials from travelling outside the country (e.g. http://www.scmp.com/news/china-insider/article/1367723/shaan...) - again these kinds of restrictions probably occur in some jobs in the west, but are less widespread. Similarly there are restrictions on some activists, which are probably more widespread in China - although one would want to be wary of the newsources on this as there is a natural bias.

In western democracies one of the main differences with the Chinese system is that there is significant communication effort around elections and attempting to educate people on the political system. There are parallels within the Chinese system but the western system involves a lot more direct communication. I am not saying one system is morally inferior to the others, but arguments can be made regarding the costs and benefits of the different systems.

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