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India, U.S. Agree to Joint Exploration of Mars

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Re: India, U.S. Agree to Joint Exploration of Mars

#21

Post by Naritai »

andrewljohnson wrote: post #18
sillysaurus3 wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a dumb question. What's a large democratic power, and how does it differ from China? I'm not implying China is in any way democratic, but rather inviting someone to further explain what the goal of the US is. Is it likely that this is simply empire expansion rather than an altruistic goal of balancing China? Mainly I'm just wondering what the concerns might be if a large democratic power (and I'd still like to…

I am aware of the textbook definition of "democracy," "republic," etc, but it seems like those names are more of a flag for people to fight under than a definition for a state of being in the modern era You seem to be assigning moral equivalence to democracy and Chinese communism/totalitarianism. If you aren't just trolling, then differences include the right to travel, the right to free speech, the right to read the…

I'm referring to the US government's 'us vs. them' attitude towards the countries that it defines as democracies (the 'free world'), and the countries it defines as dictatorships (including China).

I am aware the truth is significantly more nuanced than that, but in my post I'm interpreting the motives of the US government, not my personal take on the matter.

update: pdx's comment does a great job of providing a deeper explanation.

Re: India, U.S. Agree to Joint Exploration of Mars

#22

Post by shas3 »

peeters wrote: post #16

This is exciting but makes me nervous. India is re-imagining "space travel on a budget", but if all of a sudden they have to play by NASA's rules and standards, their ability to innovate at low cost might be hampered. Hopefully whatever form of cooperation they come up with lets India continue to operate mostly independently.

You are implicitly assuming somehow they don't currently 'play by NASA rules (and NASA-level) standards.' Any evidence that this is so?

Re: India, U.S. Agree to Joint Exploration of Mars

#23

Post by randallsquared »

sillysaurus3 wrote: post #10
Naritai wrote: post #7

While I'm a big supporter of international co-operation, remember that the US has been striking a number of technical deals with India, as a part of a long-term political investment in bringing up a large democratic power to balance China. I think this has as much to do with that goal as it does with sharing technical information.

I have a dumb question. What's a large democratic power, and how does it differ from China? I'm not implying China is in any way democratic, but rather inviting someone to further explain what the goal of the US is. Is it likely that this is simply empire expansion rather than an altruistic goal of balancing China? Mainly I'm just wondering what the concerns might be if a large democratic power (and I'd still like to…

> Is it likely that this is simply empire expansion

The US' relationship with those places it has influence is more of a reverse empire: there's always a net outflow of money/resources.

Re: India, U.S. Agree to Joint Exploration of Mars

#24

Post by Naga »

sillysaurus3 wrote: post #10
Naritai wrote: post #7

While I'm a big supporter of international co-operation, remember that the US has been striking a number of technical deals with India, as a part of a long-term political investment in bringing up a large democratic power to balance China. I think this has as much to do with that goal as it does with sharing technical information.

I have a dumb question. What's a large democratic power, and how does it differ from China? I'm not implying China is in any way democratic, but rather inviting someone to further explain what the goal of the US is. Is it likely that this is simply empire expansion rather than an altruistic goal of balancing China? Mainly I'm just wondering what the concerns might be if a large democratic power (and I'd still like to…

He means that India is a large (as in population, which is an indicator of possible industrial and economic power, military, etc) country that is a democratic country as well. That's important because democratic countries tend to align together, since public opinion matters and public opinion generally favours peace, especially against other countries that also generally want peace. So, the importance of India is that it could act as a counterweight to China in Asia. China obviously is an economic giant, but as a military power it is largely regional and has little ability to project force. A powerful India limits its abilities in Asia.

Re: India, U.S. Agree to Joint Exploration of Mars

#25

Post by Naritai »

helium wrote: post #11
Naritai wrote: post #7

While I'm a big supporter of international co-operation, remember that the US has been striking a number of technical deals with India, as a part of a long-term political investment in bringing up a large democratic power to balance China. I think this has as much to do with that goal as it does with sharing technical information.

Sure, just like probably the biggest reason the US put a man on the Moon is because of the Cold War. Still pretty cool.

True! I do think it's a net win-win.

Re: India, U.S. Agree to Joint Exploration of Mars

#26

Post by sillysaurus3 »

andrewljohnson wrote: post #18
sillysaurus3 wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a dumb question. What's a large democratic power, and how does it differ from China? I'm not implying China is in any way democratic, but rather inviting someone to further explain what the goal of the US is. Is it likely that this is simply empire expansion rather than an altruistic goal of balancing China? Mainly I'm just wondering what the concerns might be if a large democratic power (and I'd still like to…

I am aware of the textbook definition of "democracy," "republic," etc, but it seems like those names are more of a flag for people to fight under than a definition for a state of being in the modern era You seem to be assigning moral equivalence to democracy and Chinese communism/totalitarianism. If you aren't just trolling, then differences include the right to travel, the right to free speech, the right to read the…

More like there are a billion of them, and I'm sure they see us as morally inferior, just as you see them. I'm here to understand the issues and make my own decision.

Haven't you ever wondered about something that you knew nothing about? How would you learn about it other than reading and asking questions? I have no idea how you concluded that I might be trolling, especially after I both admitted ignorance and asked to be cut a break for it.

Regarding your list:

- Right to travel: There are many people from China living in the US. Do you have more info about this point? I don't understand how their right to travel is restricted.

- Right to free speech: If you were to try to start a new news organization to compete with CBS/Fox/etc, the organization wouldn't get very far unless it had a clear political agenda and was funded by supporters of that agenda. I'm interested to hear about what it's like in China in comparison to the US.

- Right to read the internet uncensored: There's no debate on this point.

- Right to vote: Candidates seem to be elected based on how well-funded they are. Or rather, no one votes for an underfunded candidate, so these are equivalent. Again, I am interested to hear about China's system, and why it's morally inferior in comparison to this.

Thanks for your time. I realize I probably sound pretty dumb here, but I'm here to learn, not to defend my position. In fact, I have no position. Only questions.

Re: India, U.S. Agree to Joint Exploration of Mars

#27

Post by mturmon »

danielweber wrote: post #2

On one hand, this could be really encouraging, allowing India to increase its home-grown engineering capacity. On the other hand, "international cooperation" is often the death of many projects, particularly space projects. On the other other hand, it wasn't like NASA was about to do something huge and cooperation with India puts that goal at risk.

...it wasn't like NASA was about to do something huge and cooperation with India puts that goal at risk...

Your nested counterfactuals are a little hard to unpack, but if I understand you correctly, it is somewhat the contrary, at least with NISAR. (Oops, I added another counterfactual.) NASA was about to NOT do something huge and the collaboration enabled it happen.

That is, before it became NISAR, the Earth-observing biomass/seismicity SAR mission was called Desdyni (http://decadal.gsfc.nasa.gov/desdyni.html). This mission was referred to as desirable in a 2007 National Academies decadal roadmap (covering the next 10 years), but there were too many other even higher-ranked missions in the pipeline. So it seemed like Desdyni was not going to get on the NASA roadmap any time soon.

The Indian contribution seems to have (for the moment) been enough to get it going, because in February NISAR entered "Phase A" which is NASA-speak for "we are starting the mission". There are later decision points depending on how ready the overall concept proves to be.

Re: India, U.S. Agree to Joint Exploration of Mars

#28

Post by mturmon »

teamonkey wrote: post #8
danielweber wrote: post #2

On one hand, this could be really encouraging, allowing India to increase its home-grown engineering capacity. On the other hand, "international cooperation" is often the death of many projects, particularly space projects. On the other other hand, it wasn't like NASA was about to do something huge and cooperation with India puts that goal at risk.

> On the other hand, "international cooperation" is often the death of many projects, particularly space projects. There are plenty of counter-examples. The ISS is an effort that spans the US, Canada, Japan, Russia and Europe (ESA). Hubble is NASA-ESA.

Other counter-examples: Planck, SOHO, Cassini/Huygens, Rosetta, ... -- all highly successful.

Re: India, U.S. Agree to Joint Exploration of Mars

#29

Post by brd »

pdx wrote: post #17
sillysaurus3 wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a dumb question. What's a large democratic power, and how does it differ from China? I'm not implying China is in any way democratic, but rather inviting someone to further explain what the goal of the US is. Is it likely that this is simply empire expansion rather than an altruistic goal of balancing China? Mainly I'm just wondering what the concerns might be if a large democratic power (and I'd still like to…

Substitute "large democratic power to balance China" with "large power to balance China", and I think it makes more sense. U.S. foreign policy seems to be to hinder the expansion of other large powers in an attempt to keep them small enough to not be an existential threat at some point in the far future. You send money and aid to whom ever is in a position to hinder those who are growing too powerful, whether the gro…

I had written something similar but you put it much more succinctly. The only things I'd add to this explanation

1) Democracy is the US rallying cry, our allies are more defensible when we do so in the name of democracy.

2) The powers that be are highly adept at manipulating a voting population so making an ally a democracy will likely turn it into a predictable/manipulable Plutocracy of sorts.

*fixed implication that India wasn't a Democracy, was simply stating a motive for the "Democratic" part of "Democratic Power"

Re: India, U.S. Agree to Joint Exploration of Mars

#30

Post by refurb »

sillysaurus3 wrote: post #26
andrewljohnson wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am aware of the textbook definition of "democracy," "republic," etc, but it seems like those names are more of a flag for people to fight under than a definition for a state of being in the modern era You seem to be assigning moral equivalence to democracy and Chinese communism/totalitarianism. If you aren't just trolling, then differences include the right to travel, the right to free speech, the right to read the…

More like there are a billion of them, and I'm sure they see us as morally inferior, just as you see them. I'm here to understand the issues and make my own decision. Haven't you ever wondered about something that you knew nothing about? How would you learn about it other than reading and asking questions? I have no idea how you concluded that I might be trolling, especially after I both admitted ignorance and asked…

I get the sense that you're approaching this as "neither system is perfect, so they are equivalent"?

In other words, since you could get shot by a cop in the US even though you did nothing wrong, that means American is no better than ISIS who massacres thousands of innocent civilians?

I would argue there are real, important differences in the points you called out as equivalent (or near-equivalent).

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