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India, U.S. Agree to Joint Exploration of Mars

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Re: India, U.S. Agree to Joint Exploration of Mars

#41
Exciting news but is it an unqualified positive for both? Sometimes Constraints are what drives breakthrough innovations.

India's ability to Manage Significant space exploration programmes on a Shoe string budget is driven in part by the need to innovate on a "ShoeString" budget. What we as a race desperately need is low cost access to Space - which perhaps may not become such a priority if NASA is allowed to influence ISRO.

On the other hand maybe ISRO will influence NASA & wewill get the best of both - super low cost missions with super advanced payloads :)

Re: India, U.S. Agree to Joint Exploration of Mars

#42
post #7

While I'm a big supporter of international co-operation, remember that the US has been striking a number of technical deals with India, as a part of a long-term political investment in bringing up a large democratic power to balance China. I think this has as much to do with that goal as it does with sharing technical information.

Are the government officials using the scientists to further their own geopolitical ambitions?

Or are the scientists of both countries using their government officials to fund their scientific curiosities?

Probably a bit of both, IMO.

Re: India, U.S. Agree to Joint Exploration of Mars

#43
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

More like there are a billion of them, and I'm sure they see us as morally inferior, just as you see them. I'm here to understand the issues and make my own decision. Haven't you ever wondered about something that you knew nothing about? How would you learn about it other than reading and asking questions? I have no idea how you concluded that I might be trolling, especially after I both admitted ignorance and asked…

I get the sense that you're approaching this as "neither system is perfect, so they are equivalent"? In other words, since you could get shot by a cop in the US even though you did nothing wrong, that means American is no better than ISIS who massacres thousands of innocent civilians? I would argue there are real, important differences in the points you called out as equivalent (or near-equivalent).

How about trying to answer the original question, instead of attacking a position you assume he holds, a position which, in fact, he explicitly states he does not hold? The question, for the record, was "What does the US government believe it stands to gain by ensuring a strong democratic power in the region, and what does it believe it stands to lose if it fails to do so?". Other replies seem to have had no trouble understanding the question. Tearing someone down for requesting information and opinions is not productive.

Re: India, U.S. Agree to Joint Exploration of Mars

#44
post #34
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are implicitly assuming somehow they don't currently 'play by NASA rules (and NASA-level) standards.' Any evidence that this is so?

I'm not disparaging the quality of India's space program. I'm more saying that once you bring NASA into the picture there's the potential of inheriting 70 years worth of engineering requirements and process which could be detrimental to a fledgling space program. Edit: And you added the "NASA-level" which put words in my mouth that I did not say nor mean. I meant what I said: "NASA's standards"; standards that NASA h…

>>>> I'm more saying that once you bring NASA into the picture there's the potential of inheriting 70 years worth of engineering requirements and process which could be detrimental to a fledgling space program.

Indian space program was started in 1962[1][2]; and over a period of time ISRO has pretty much mastered technologies related to launch vehicles, satellites, science missions etc. This new joint working agreement pertains to following areas:

1) Mars exploration:

"The joint Mars Working Group will seek to identify and implement scientific, programmatic and technological goals that NASA and ISRO have in common regarding Mars exploration. The group will meet once a year to plan cooperative activities, including potential NASA-ISRO cooperation on future missions to Mars."

"One of the working group’s objectives will be to explore potential coordinated observations and science analysis between MAVEN and MOM, as well as other current and future Mars missions."

2) Earth observation:

"The joint NISAR Earth-observing mission will make global measurements of the causes and consequences of land surface changes."

"NISAR will be the first satellite mission to use two different radar frequencies (L-band and S-band) to measure changes in our planet’s surface less than a centimeter across."

Moreover, ISRO and NASA have worked together earlier as well. Few examples: ISRO's Chandrayaan-1 Moon mission carried NASA's scientific payloads[3]; NASA, NOAA and ISRO share ISRO's Oceansat2's oceanographic data[4]. So, I don't think this new agreement would be detrimental to ISRO's operations :)

[1]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_National_Committee_for_S...

[2]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Space_Research_Organisat...

[3]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chandrayaan-1#Instruments_from_...

[4]http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/209482.pdf

Re: India, U.S. Agree to Joint Exploration of Mars

#45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am aware of the textbook definition of "democracy," "republic," etc, but it seems like those names are more of a flag for people to fight under than a definition for a state of being in the modern era You seem to be assigning moral equivalence to democracy and Chinese communism/totalitarianism. If you aren't just trolling, then differences include the right to travel, the right to free speech, the right to read the…

More like there are a billion of them, and I'm sure they see us as morally inferior, just as you see them. I'm here to understand the issues and make my own decision. Haven't you ever wondered about something that you knew nothing about? How would you learn about it other than reading and asking questions? I have no idea how you concluded that I might be trolling, especially after I both admitted ignorance and asked…

> More like there are a billion of them, and I'm sure they see us as morally inferior, just as you see them.

My wife is urban mainland Chinese, with no particular political or social axe to grind. She's not some dedicated protester or anything and nor are any of her family, one of whom is a government official. From personal experience I can say many, and probably most ordinary Chinese are perfectly well aware of just how appaling, venal and corrupt their government and political system is. They're patriotic and would fight for China as a nation against any foreing power, but they're not totally ignorant or stupid.

Right to travel - The Hokou system in China restricts country people form accessing education, health care and social services in cities where they dwell. Even if they were born there! Most cities have hundreds of thousands of country people living in them with no actual right to be there whatsoever. People not of Han ethnicity face severe bureaucratic problems exercising rights Han Chinese take for granted. It's not official, but it happens.

Free Speech - There are publications espousing every possible political or religious belief that can scrape together the cash in the west, not so in China. Speech on the internet counts, in China it is not free. Western publications are routinely banned.

Right to Vote - True democracies have more than one political party, and it is possible for the party in power to change. You may have noticed this actually happened in India very recently. It also happened here in the UK at the last election, and in the USA the election before last. In fact the current president of the USA is constitutionaly barred from even standing in the next election. These are manifest expressions of democracy actualy working before your eyes. The only reason marginal political groups don't get much representation is because they're marginal for a reason - people choose not to vote for them. The Chinese people have no such choice.

Re: India, U.S. Agree to Joint Exploration of Mars

#47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am aware of the textbook definition of "democracy," "republic," etc, but it seems like those names are more of a flag for people to fight under than a definition for a state of being in the modern era You seem to be assigning moral equivalence to democracy and Chinese communism/totalitarianism. If you aren't just trolling, then differences include the right to travel, the right to free speech, the right to read the…

More like there are a billion of them, and I'm sure they see us as morally inferior, just as you see them. I'm here to understand the issues and make my own decision. Haven't you ever wondered about something that you knew nothing about? How would you learn about it other than reading and asking questions? I have no idea how you concluded that I might be trolling, especially after I both admitted ignorance and asked…

Nobody claimed that the Chinese people are morally inferior.

Your example of comparing the challenges of starting a news organization to compete with the likes of Fox News to that of the censorship that has been going on in China for years seems to a stretch, to say the least. Same goes for your "right to vote" comparison.

I recommend you visit Amazon and pick up a couple of books on China if you are interested in getting up to speed on what is going on. Also, check out the events that have been going on in Hong Kong.

Re: India, U.S. Agree to Joint Exploration of Mars

#48
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had written something similar but you put it much more succinctly. The only things I'd add to this explanation 1) Democracy is the US rallying cry, our allies are more defensible when we do so in the name of democracy. 2) The powers that be are highly adept at manipulating a voting population so making an ally a democracy will likely turn it into a predictable/manipulable Plutocracy of sorts. *fixed implication tha…

Something to note regarding recent US and Indian history - During the cold war, India supported Russia (Not much of real support, mostly supporting in words and buying technology from Russia in turn). So US ended up supporting Pakistan and China. Pakistan continuously tried different ways to discourage India's development. Not sure if all that had any major effect on the cold war, but it certainly had serious repercu…

> Plus India no longer closely associates with Russia.

I don't know how serious it is (I think some members consider it more important than others) but India and Russia are two of the five members of the BRICS group, so there's definitely still some degree of cooperation beyond just trading partners.

Re: India, U.S. Agree to Joint Exploration of Mars

#49

On one hand, this could be really encouraging, allowing India to increase its home-grown engineering capacity. On the other hand, "international cooperation" is often the death of many projects, particularly space projects. On the other other hand, it wasn't like NASA was about to do something huge and cooperation with India puts that goal at risk.

> On the other hand, "international cooperation" is often the death of many projects, particularly space projects. There are plenty of counter-examples. The ISS is an effort that spans the US, Canada, Japan, Russia and Europe (ESA). Hubble is NASA-ESA.

Why is that a counter-example? The ISS is incredibly more expensive, complicated, and accomplishes less science because it's "international."

Re: India, U.S. Agree to Joint Exploration of Mars

#50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am aware of the textbook definition of "democracy," "republic," etc, but it seems like those names are more of a flag for people to fight under than a definition for a state of being in the modern era You seem to be assigning moral equivalence to democracy and Chinese communism/totalitarianism. If you aren't just trolling, then differences include the right to travel, the right to free speech, the right to read the…

More like there are a billion of them, and I'm sure they see us as morally inferior, just as you see them. I'm here to understand the issues and make my own decision. Haven't you ever wondered about something that you knew nothing about? How would you learn about it other than reading and asking questions? I have no idea how you concluded that I might be trolling, especially after I both admitted ignorance and asked…

These questions are so basic they seem like either trolling or a back-handed way of expressing an opinion.

If, as your comments suggest that isn't your goal, then spending 30 minutes on wikipedia would be a better use of time than asking HN about Chinese politics.

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