Most People with Addiction Simply Grow Out of It • Hacker News Board

Re: Most People with Addiction Simply Grow Out of It

#131

Post by nemo » Thu, Oct 02, 2014, 1:58 AM UTC

bkeroack wrote: post #12

I don't dispute the article's thesis, but a significant part of the reason why addiction is skewed so heavily to the young could be because the most severe addicts die from it before reaching an older age. As in, you don't "age out", you "survive".

I think growing out of it is a big part, though. I knew a number of people who shot up in their late teens/early 20s who quit when they got older. The methheads I knew had a harder time, but a lot of them quit too. Of the people I knew who were hardcore drug abusers, very few died, and most grew out of it, which is what the numbers suggest. The ones who and the worst time of it were the ones who bought into NA/CA dogma, and took on addiction as a personality, rather than seeing it as a phase they grew out of. They also had the highest mortality rate, predictably. Tell someone they have no self control, and they'll binge the worst.

Some people who get hooked by drugs die, but addiction isn't nearly as deadly as it would need to be for the numbers to drop like they do, and statistically spontaneous remission is the most common way for people to kick the habit. Normally people grow out of it.

Re: Most People with Addiction Simply Grow Out of It

#132

Post by rando289 » Thu, Oct 02, 2014, 2:01 AM UTC

wuliwong wrote: post #56

Isn't it possible that the issue is in the difficulty in classifying people as "addicts" instead of concluding that most addicts just grow out of it? The alcoholics in my family do not grow out of it. To a man (or woman) they just deteriorate over the years and it is a very sad thing to watch. It seems possible that what the author had and what my family members have are two different afflictions. >Moreover, if addic…

Yes, I agree this is an important point that author missed out on. There is a wide belief that there is physical addition which will affect anyone who makes a mistake of using too much of a powerfully addictive substance, then separately there is a mental disease of addition, which doesn't require an addictive substance. The main study this is linked to only addresses abstinence of a single drug. Abstinence != recovery is a very widely held belief.

Re: Most People with Addiction Simply Grow Out of It

#133

Post by kar2014 » Thu, Oct 02, 2014, 3:41 AM UTC

Theodores wrote: post #116

mm_throwaway wrote: post #88

Here is one addiction I wish I could grow out of: benzos and other benzo like drugs such as Ambien (zolpidem). I've been on them for almost 9 years, and they are unbelievably hard to quit. I take them for my insomnia. I don't have to take much (10mg of Ambien for example), but without them I'll lay awake in bed for 8 hours not getting any sleep. I've done all the sleep hygiene stuff such as CBT or forced sleep depriv…

Have you tried getting an allotment and digging it? All of it, two feet down? Working it from dawn to dusk with three short breaks? Better still, hard manual labour on shifts in a factory where slacking off stops production and is therefore not possible? Maybe in a hazardous environment where you have to be alert to avoid getting burnt or injured by machinery. Seriously, put yourself through a few weeks in some indus…

I agree, I've seen it time and again, people taking multiple medicine for sleep disorder and nothing works. What works is taking a manual job or if you cannot take such a job, put yourself on treadmill and keep going till you fall off, I mean an hour or two. And see how you sleep after that.

Re: Most People with Addiction Simply Grow Out of It

#134

Post by techtalsky » Thu, Oct 02, 2014, 3:53 AM UTC

I'm a little shocked that out of 124 HN Comments (at the time of this writing), no one has linked to or referenced the study in any way.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3227547

Did I read it? No, but I read the abstract and intro. Study was about adults addicted to nicotine, alcohol, cannabis, or cocaine. 43k people total, about 12k people with a real DSM-IV diagnosis of addiction to one of these substances. Eventual remission rates for these things were over 90% (except nicotine, which was 88%).

The study is interesting, so let's start there. The results of the study surprised me, personally. I wouldn't have guessed the remission numbers were that high. I would have liked to see heroin, meth, or, far more pervasive in this day and age: prescription opiates.

It's certainly nice to see good news, and I do consider the study a kind of good news. The study obviously doesn't overstep its bounds or draw any big conclusions. I'm sure the people who actually did the study knew and experienced how damaging drugs CAN be in those 15-25 years before remission.

However, then we get to the article. The author runs the site substance.com and has published a book and several articles with a strong point of view about 12 step programs and the way young people with drug dependence are treated in today's society. I do think she's bending the study a little to her own aims, but I do appreciate her call towards sanity. It's a stretch, but I don't think she's being unfair to use this study to support her approach.

I don't think soft-selling the total life destroying danger of drug abuse is wise, and obviously it would suck if someone started taking drugs because they read an article or study like this, but it's possible.

Re: Most People with Addiction Simply Grow Out of It

#135

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Oct 02, 2014, 4:04 AM UTC

wozniacki wrote: post #118

verisimilidude wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your comment resonates with me quite a bit. During my high school years, I suffered a bad accident. My right forearm was pretty much shattered, almost amputated. For about a week after all the surgeries, I was on Vicodin 24/7. Just from that, I was addicted. The withdrawal was miserable, and obviously came at the worst possible time. That one week with Vicodin continues to have profound effects on my life, even now t…

Okay, I have long wanted to know this about alcoholics and alcohol relapse sufferers: Do one-time alcoholics - functional or otherwise - who have sought treatment and then completely quit drinking for a fair number of years, ever manage to go back to moderate & responsible alcohol consumption? or Is it pretty much a life of teetotalism, for them, after that? Do you know of any friends or family who have recovered and…

[deleted]

Re: Most People with Addiction Simply Grow Out of It

#136

Post by codescorrectly » Thu, Oct 02, 2014, 4:09 AM UTC

tjradcliffe wrote: post #98

ugk wrote: post #50

As a sober addict I really can't comprehend the "flavor" of addiction the author describes. Most of my addict friends and acquaintances either worked at sobriety or died from using. Actually most died. If someone can just stop, most would simply say the person wasn't actually an addict.

I've seen this comment about "wasn't actually an addict" or "not really an addiction" in every discussion of this story, here and elsewhere. I'm very curious as to why people say this, because it doesn't seem to add anything to the discussion or take it in any useful direction. I'm not trolling here: I really don't get it, and it bugs me a bit because it seems to distract the discussion from things that might be usef…

Ive heard this sentiment most often in 12 step program meetings.

Re: Most People with Addiction Simply Grow Out of It

#137

Post by tveita » Thu, Oct 02, 2014, 4:14 AM UTC

InclinedPlane wrote: post #16

bkeroack wrote: post #12

I don't dispute the article's thesis, but a significant part of the reason why addiction is skewed so heavily to the young could be because the most severe addicts die from it before reaching an older age. As in, you don't "age out", you "survive".

That doesn't add up. By all estimates there are many millions of people addicted to drugs or alcohol in the US alone (as many as 20+ million). If we are to assume that the article's premise that addictions tend to have a lifespan of about 15-20 years or so is due to the fact that the addicts are dying then that would correspond to something like a million deaths per year. In the sub-45 year old population that would…

How Americans die:

http://www.bloomberg.com/dataview/2014-04-17/how-americans-d...

This shows drug deaths as comparable to motor vehicle accidents.

(This includes both legal and illegal drugs, and poisoning from prescribed medicine, but I doubt that the rise in recent years is due to worsening quality of healthcare.)

Re: Most People with Addiction Simply Grow Out of It

#138

Post by b1daly » Thu, Oct 02, 2014, 4:23 AM UTC

I think the author has an important point to make, which could be helpful for those struggling with addiction and find that the model of the disease and total abstinence suggested by 12 step groups doesn't fit in some.

Anecdotally it seems to square with my observations of long time friends.

That said, I do think that there "a thing" that has aspects of a disease. The belief structure was created by folks from e early part of the 20th century, so there concept that the disease was a permanent affliction was probably just not correct.

I tend to look at addictions as a subset of obsessive/compulsive disorders, which has an additional chemical feedback loop enhancer.

Overall, our understanding of mental illness is woefully undeveloped. Most cases are diagnosed by interpretations Of subjective and self reported symptoms. The last time I looked at a discussion of this related to the new DSM, the very low interrator reliability I the diagnosing of mental illness was scandalous. Doesn't mean it's not a real thing though.

Re: Most People with Addiction Simply Grow Out of It

#139

Post by bbunix » Thu, Oct 02, 2014, 5:53 AM UTC

wozniacki wrote: post #118

verisimilidude wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your comment resonates with me quite a bit. During my high school years, I suffered a bad accident. My right forearm was pretty much shattered, almost amputated. For about a week after all the surgeries, I was on Vicodin 24/7. Just from that, I was addicted. The withdrawal was miserable, and obviously came at the worst possible time. That one week with Vicodin continues to have profound effects on my life, even now t…

Okay, I have long wanted to know this about alcoholics and alcohol relapse sufferers: Do one-time alcoholics - functional or otherwise - who have sought treatment and then completely quit drinking for a fair number of years, ever manage to go back to moderate & responsible alcohol consumption? or Is it pretty much a life of teetotalism, for them, after that? Do you know of any friends or family who have recovered and…

As an expert in the subject, having stopped for 8.5 years, started, stopped again for almost 10, and started, and now stopped for another 8... um, nope.

I'm addicted to substances that haven't been invented yet... and my brain really enjoys being wasted... the Ramones "I wanna be sedated" pretty well sums it up.

So for someone like me, mind altering substances are dangerous because I have no brakes... even after years of being stopped... because I really don't want to "enjoy alcohol responsibly".... I want to enjoy alcohol irresponsibly.

Re: Most People with Addiction Simply Grow Out of It

#140

Post by anon_addict » Thu, Oct 02, 2014, 5:58 AM UTC

I was a hardcore IV heroin and cocaine addict for 10 years. Contracted Hep C, did 2 years in jail, and ruined every relationship that I crossed paths with.

After dozens of detoxes, jail, prison, several rehabs, and a year of homelessness on the streets of NYC for an entire winter, I had had enough.

I moved to Cali and got back to my roots, computers. I picked up HTML / CSS and started learning Javascript. I started doing websites for people eventually I started a consulting business I later sold for a nice chunk. I now have a profitable start-up and was recently offered a CTO position at a Fortune 100 company.

I grew out of it. I don't want to get high anymore. It has been 10 years. I don't drink or smoke weed, and have no desire to. I still have addictive behaviors, but it just isnt an option anymore. Posting from a throwaway obviously this is not something I am ready to share at this point in my life but just wanted to relate for a brief moment.