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Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn

timeshighereducation.co.uk

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Re: Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn

#321

Post by GolfyMcG »

GolfyMcG wrote: post #57

Why has no one brought up how the top German university is "ranked" 55th on this list: http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/world-university-ranki... I'm not saying this list is definitive or that the US tuition prices are reasonable, but it stands to reason that the best of the best of anything is going to be exponentially more expensive than it's next closest competitors.

To play devil's advocate, I'm not necessarily saying that the best education stems from these schools but it's certainly other things that you're getting value from. This other HN article seemed relevant:

http://andrewgelman.com/2014/09/30/23581/

Re: Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn

#322

Post by bane »

rthomas6 wrote: post #296
bane wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

American here, after age 10, I grew up fairly poor and very rural. Within a half hour drive (on highways) from the home I grew up in, all the jobs were either in farming/agriculture, similar industrial (quarries or steel factory), grocery stores or gas stations. The notion of going to college was virtually inconceivable to me and I was pretty sure I'd end up out in a field or a factory someplace. For a while I did od…

What does your family think about all this?

My father was the very first person in my family on either side to graduate college at all. But he ended up in a different field from his major and some bad business decisions put us in the poor house while I was growing up. He's very proud.

Most of the rest of my family, having never gone to university at all don't quite understand what it's all about, but know enough to have some envy/confusion over the economic opportunities it creates. Basically my Mom thinks it's "nice".

One of my siblings ended up with an Associates in a vocational field and has worked steadily in that field, and another ended up with a business undergrad, but now works in a different field. They do get why schooling is important and understand how it benefits them.

I have a cousin who's gotten sick of the low-pay dead end job life and has been asking me for advice on how to get into and through college and turn it into an upwardly mobile career. He's also coming from a poor rural family environment and is pretty desperate to get out. But the new high cost of schooling (especially at his local state schools) is making it very hard for him to get his education moving forward.

Re: Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn

#324

Post by virtue3 »

saool wrote: post #287

I wish the debate focused less on cost-benefit analysis and on ways to engineer a just "chargeback" using loans or taxes and more about the idea that maybe people should be encouraged to pursue education just for the sake of it, to become free men and free thinkers, regardless of whether they'd be economically better off by taking electricity at trade school just to quickly join the assembly line at Volkswagen so tha…

This was the case at one point in time. But only the independently wealthy could afford to do this.

As much as I wish your sentiment could be true, it's just not realistic in an economically driven world :/

Re: Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn

#325

Post by JetSpiegel »

rthomas6 wrote: post #294
saool wrote: post #287

I wish the debate focused less on cost-benefit analysis and on ways to engineer a just "chargeback" using loans or taxes and more about the idea that maybe people should be encouraged to pursue education just for the sake of it, to become free men and free thinkers, regardless of whether they'd be economically better off by taking electricity at trade school just to quickly join the assembly line at Volkswagen so tha…

But then they wouldn't buy the bigger TV because they'd realize it wouldn't make them happier, and the TV makers would suffer. /s

Or they see Network[1] and they just never watch TV anymore.

1: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0074958/

Re: Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn

#326

Post by endtime »

acadien wrote: post #291
saool wrote: post #287

I wish the debate focused less on cost-benefit analysis and on ways to engineer a just "chargeback" using loans or taxes and more about the idea that maybe people should be encouraged to pursue education just for the sake of it, to become free men and free thinkers, regardless of whether they'd be economically better off by taking electricity at trade school just to quickly join the assembly line at Volkswagen so tha…

I agree with everything said above, but what about the fact that society will always need plumbers, garbage collectors, fast food employees etc.? I'm not even sure that this is a counter point to what is mentioned above, just more thinking out loud. Is it possible to have a high functioning/efficient society in which there are no economic pressures to motivate people?

> the fact that society will always need plumbers, garbage collectors, fast food employees etc.

Is that a fact? I'm sure plenty of people would once have said society will always need human "computers" (now so entirely replaced by machines that the original meaning of the word is a historical factoid). Or that society will always need assembly line workers (now well into the process of being replaced by robots).

When I check out at CVS I use a machine, not a human cashier. I bet there are restaurants in Japan/Korea with no human serving staff - just use the touch screen at the table to place your order and it pops out of a slot in the wall when it's ready. Cab drivers will be replaced by self-driving cars in the next 20 years. Et cetera. So I think that part of your comment is quite short-sighted.

On the other hand, the question of what all those folks will/should do once their economic value plummets (which, arguably, has already started happening) is a tricky one.

Re: Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn

#327

Post by k-mcgrady »

sillysaurus3 wrote: post #282
praxulus wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe that can only be used on government loans, not private loans. Yet another reason to avoid private student loans if at all possible.

If you want to go to university, and you're not from a privileged economic background, avoiding private student loans isn't really possible, unfortunately. Doubly so, because people from disadvantaged economic backgrounds have no idea how to find government money to help them attend college in the first place. And government loans usually don't cover all of the expenses related to university anyway, so private loans…

>> "And government loans usually don't cover all of the expenses related to university anyway, so private loans become necessary."

Again, not in the UK. Students here are given two loans. One to cover tuition and a separate one for cost of living. It's not much but it's enough for a student to get by.

Re: Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn

#328

Post by k-mcgrady »

Flimm wrote: post #244
k-mcgrady wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> "consider it a risky option" In the UK system there is no risk. You only have to pay back the loan (form the government) when you are earning over a certain amount per year. It is taken directly from your salary like other taxes. If you never earn enough money you never have to pay it back. If you choose to live and work abroad you don't have to pay either.

You do have to pay it back if you live abroad, although I don't know how they would enforce it. http://www.studentloanrepayment.co.uk/portal/page?_pageid=93...

I don't think it's enforced at all. I know several people who worked abroad for years and didn't start paying until they came back.

Re: Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn

#329

Post by personalcompute »

ibebrett wrote: post #305
zwieback wrote: post #302

Another point: US universities look very different from German ones. I live in Corvallis (OSU) now but grew up and went to school in Stuttgart Germany. Compared to the German universities our US schools are country clubs: dorms, restaurants, coffee shops, fitness clubs, green spaces everywhere. Don't even get me started on the sports, it's an outrage how US schools have become sports franchises. I'm guessing most US…

That sounds perfect to me (an american who tends to like learning through MOOCs)

I have to wonder if there is anything like this available in the US aside from MOOCs? I haven't explored far, but even the ostensibly bare bones community colleges I've looked at were trying to emulate the typical inclusive social experience model.

Re: Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn

#330

Post by bane »

beachstartup wrote: post #307
bane wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

American here, after age 10, I grew up fairly poor and very rural. Within a half hour drive (on highways) from the home I grew up in, all the jobs were either in farming/agriculture, similar industrial (quarries or steel factory), grocery stores or gas stations. The notion of going to college was virtually inconceivable to me and I was pretty sure I'd end up out in a field or a factory someplace. For a while I did od…

pardon me for asking, just curious - what year did you graduate?

Education timeline:

Graduated Highschool - 1995

Graduated Undergrad - 2003 (not a typo, I was usually the oldest student in class)

Graduated Grad - 2010 (also not a typo, I went back after some career time to figure out what I wanted to do)

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