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Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn

timeshighereducation.co.uk

241–250 of 536 posts

Re: Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn

#241

Why has no one brought up how the top German university is "ranked" 55th on this list: http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/world-university-ranki... I'm not saying this list is definitive or that the US tuition prices are reasonable, but it stands to reason that the best of the best of anything is going to be exponentially more expensive than it's next closest competitors.

That link is laughably bad, at least for Canadian universities. U of Toronto at #20 world wide? Impossible. People are not lining up to get into Toronto. I was offered a full scholarship at my first choice at Toronto, and didn't even get my first choice at Waterloo. Waterloo behind 7 or 8 other Canadian universities? Also impossible.

These rankings rely so heavily on research and reputation for scoring that you shouldn't look at it as an indicator of a university's academic quality.

That would be the reason U of T is ranked so highly; they are even amongst competitive Ivy League schools!

When I was applying for university (2007/08) U of T was handing out acceptance letters to everyone. Instead of rejecting you they would offer a place at a "lesser" campus (Mississauga or Scarborough) or defer you to a less competitive but related program. They are the largest university system in the nation with lots of spaces to fill so the scenario you described (getting accepted by the "#1 ranked school in Canada" and rejected by another") actually happens quite a lot.

As for Waterloo, they're hardly a well rounded school. Yes, their engineering and computer science departments are internationally renown, but otherwise they are 2nd tier.

Whatever the metric for rankings, I still think U of T is the best school in Canada. Just maybe not top 20 in the world.

Re: Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn

#242
post #239

I started paying around 250 Euro when starting my study at the university (2009). This term I had to pay aroung 290 Euro. The fee for the TU Berlin is composed of: Verwaltungsgebühr (gem. § 2 Abs. 7 BerlHG) (administrative fee) 50,00 € Beitrag zur Studierendenschaft (Contribution to the student body) 8,70 € Beitrag zum Studentenwerk (Contribution to the Student Services) 48,77 € Beitrag zum Semesterticket (Contributi…

[deleted]

Re: Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn

#243

I find the "American model" and the "European model" dichotomy very interesting. American model: individually centered, "pay for what you want", development is driven by small companies and individual decisions (most of the time). "Works for me" European model: centered on the community, social support, development by committee/government/consensus. Slow but directed improvements Germany could not have produced Faceb…

Excellent points! Food for thought

Re: Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn

#244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is my exactly my point. In the US, many students take an educational loan -- but, I would argue that most students in the lower social strata (e.g. African Americans whose parents have not had the benefit of college education) still think consider it a risky option and that 'it is not for them'. And those who graduate after a student loan are forced to take suboptimal choices (because now they have to pay back t…

>> "consider it a risky option" In the UK system there is no risk. You only have to pay back the loan (form the government) when you are earning over a certain amount per year. It is taken directly from your salary like other taxes. If you never earn enough money you never have to pay it back. If you choose to live and work abroad you don't have to pay either.

You do have to pay it back if you live abroad, although I don't know how they would enforce it. http://www.studentloanrepayment.co.uk/portal/page?_pageid=93...

Re: Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn

#245
post #37

I'm a student at a German university, and I don't pay tuition fees, but I do pay about 400€ a year in "semester fees", of which the two largest components are "student services" and a compulsory season ticket for regional transport; student union membership and some kind of insurance contribution are also included.

American students generally pay similar fees on top of their tuition. Except they're usually higher.

Re: Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn

#246

Has there been any extensive research done on relationship between university fees and social mobility? On one hand it seems obvious that if you reduce costs of attending university you remove a barrier that would prevent economically disadvantaged people from attending. But on the other hand, university students, especially those at the best universities disproportionately come from better economic backgrounds and t…

American here, after age 10, I grew up fairly poor and very rural. Within a half hour drive (on highways) from the home I grew up in, all the jobs were either in farming/agriculture, similar industrial (quarries or steel factory), grocery stores or gas stations.

The notion of going to college was virtually inconceivable to me and I was pretty sure I'd end up out in a field or a factory someplace. For a while I did odd manual labor jobs, sanding decks, cleaning gutters, digging drainage trenches, that sort of thing. My parents were simply unable to pay for any amount of college for me and I was barely making enough money to cover the gas and meals to get to and from and work at the various job sites. Coming out of that kind of environment, with no hope of ever getting to college, I didn't even bother taking the SATs in high school and barely graduated at all, nobody hiring farm work cares about your GPA.

Through a friend I managed to land a low-end tech job, but it provided me with just enough to pay for community college with lots of financial aid (I couldn't take loans because I wasn't sure if I could even pay them back).

Eventually, just because I was currently in college in a desirable field, I landed a paid internship that paid 3x what I was then currently making. I graduated, transferred to the local state school, converted the internship into a part-time job that paid even more.

At the local state school, I didn't make enough to pay for college and live, so I qualified for a number of grants which provided 100% of my tuition (I still had to pay for books and various other fees). Today the grants are about the same amount of money, but the state school fees back then were about 1/3 less than they are today thanks to generous subsidies, so I definitely benefited from that subsidy program. I couldn't have gone to my final two years of my undergrad in today's environment.

Because I was nearing the end of my undergrad, I was able to land another, higher paying internship with a performance-based conversion to full-time employment. When I graduated college, I converted to full-time and immediately doubled my income and started on a long and interesting career path.

Eventually I went back to grad school and got a Masters, which has again accelerated my career development.

So did I experience social mobility from cheap education fees? Absolutely. I think the most important thing is that had I not gone to college and ended up in dead-end farm work, the amount of taxes I would have payed back into the state would have been a tiny tiny fraction of what I've paid back since then. I've easily bought back the subsidies and grants used for my education several times over just in the tax difference that I've paid personally, and the additional economic benefits I'm able to provide working in my field far outstrip even that. For example, I've been able to hire people from out of state and out of the country and bring them into my state where they're now paying taxes back into the system.

It seems like such a virtuous cycle that I can't imagine why at least the levels of subsidies that I enjoyed haven't been maintained. It seems like such an obvious investment.

Re: Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn

#247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is my exactly my point. In the US, many students take an educational loan -- but, I would argue that most students in the lower social strata (e.g. African Americans whose parents have not had the benefit of college education) still think consider it a risky option and that 'it is not for them'. And those who graduate after a student loan are forced to take suboptimal choices (because now they have to pay back t…

>> "consider it a risky option" In the UK system there is no risk. You only have to pay back the loan (form the government) when you are earning over a certain amount per year. It is taken directly from your salary like other taxes. If you never earn enough money you never have to pay it back. If you choose to live and work abroad you don't have to pay either.

In the U.S. student loans can be very high risk. There's no guarantee your degree will help you get a higher paying job, and the loan repayment requirements are the strongest imaginable, even bankruptcy can't wipe student loans off your debt.

Re: Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn

#248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not so much anecdotal as circumstantial. If everyone was taking the loan, you probably would too. It is the same in England, were students took loans for 3,5k pounds a year and now even 9k a year. Now I am not saying that the British system is the ideal (pros and cons) but I can certainly provide some more anecdotal evidence of many people who study for free (in the Czech Republic) and are basically wasting the…

Maybe a free education, but add a screening process to measure the psychology of the student, help choose a profession or trade that will not be a waste of their time.

Why should the king dictate what Who does with their time?

Re: Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn

#249
post #134
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From an European point of view, the US university system is crazy. In many European countries the value of state universities over private ones is very high regarded, that except for a few well renowned exceptions, private universities are seen as places where you buy a title, not earn one. As they mostly get the students that weren't able to go through the national exams for the state universities.

> From an European point of view, the US university system is crazy. From the US point of view the European system is crazy. Call me a selfish prick but I don't want to pay 50% taxes for the rest of my life subsidizing arts majors' parties because I chose to study something useful.

Uhuh. And how much in federal taxes + social security + medicare + state tax etc do you pay working in California? That's pretty much European levels.

Re: Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn

#250
post #234
post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are a lot of paths to Universities. What the German education system recognizes is this: not everyone needs to go to university. There are lots of other satisfying career paths.

personally I don't think universities is only for career ! people get more socialize ! get more experience ! and get more mature.

The same can be said of almost anything that young adults do. Entering the working world is certainly a maturing experience, and I don't necessarily believe that 4 years of higher education is better in that than 4 years of labour.
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