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Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn

timeshighereducation.co.uk

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Re: Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn

#151

Post by psychometry »

raverbashing wrote: post #109
psychometry wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do those philosophies have to be mutually exclusive? Can't you apply principles of social welfare to the public sector while allowing entrepreneurship in the private sector?

They don't have to be. But it's complicated. And sure, entrepreneurship is allowed, but then you'll have to convince your family of why are you not getting a nice job as a government clerk or something.

One barrier to entrepreneurship in the U.S. is lack of health benefits when you're self-employed. There's not much of a social safety net here compared to most of Europe. Thus, one would think that Europe would actually be a better place to quit your job and pursue some startup idea. Why isn't that the case?

Re: Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn

#152

Post by raverbashing »

flexie wrote: post #105
raverbashing wrote: post #73

I find the "American model" and the "European model" dichotomy very interesting. American model: individually centered, "pay for what you want", development is driven by small companies and individual decisions (most of the time). "Works for me" European model: centered on the community, social support, development by committee/government/consensus. Slow but directed improvements Germany could not have produced Faceb…

If Germany couldn't have produced Facebook it's only because of the language. User content on facebook is mainly a written language thing, and it would have been hard spreading a website with mostly German content to English since so few Americans and brits speak German. On the other hand, most young Europeans speak English so Facebook had little trouble spreading from American universities to Europeans. Skype starte…

> If Germany couldn't have produced Facebook it's only because of the language

No. Most Germans don't even care for FB (or twitter). Or they use it with a limited purpose. They think it's silly.

Skype is a nice example, but is one of fewer companies like that.

> Apple and Google are examples of American companies that started with public funding

Are you sure? A lot of SV companies have had public funding but I'm not sure about them.

"Don't most European know several millionaires who "came out of nothing""

Well, this happens pretty much everywhere, even in 3rd world countries (sure, in a much smaller quantity). Social mobility is important, but a comfortable life in a comfy job may also be a prison (better than going through difficulties, sure)

Re: Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn

#154

Post by awfycooper »

brianmcc wrote: post #41
jiggy2011 wrote: post #19

Has there been any extensive research done on relationship between university fees and social mobility? On one hand it seems obvious that if you reduce costs of attending university you remove a barrier that would prevent economically disadvantaged people from attending. But on the other hand, university students, especially those at the best universities disproportionately come from better economic backgrounds and t…

In some parts of the UK, you mean :-) http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-23279868

This is why it's a god send if you have a Scottish relative of some sort when you grow up poor in England. A couple of friends of mine used this exact loophole in order to further their education when they had to leave high school.

Re: Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn

#155

Post by raverbashing »

colordrops wrote: post #128
raverbashing wrote: post #73

I find the "American model" and the "European model" dichotomy very interesting. American model: individually centered, "pay for what you want", development is driven by small companies and individual decisions (most of the time). "Works for me" European model: centered on the community, social support, development by committee/government/consensus. Slow but directed improvements Germany could not have produced Faceb…

I'm not so sure that Facebook is the best example. It's not clear whether its existence has made a positive mark on the world or a negative one. Also, Linux was created in another socialized state, Finland. I would argue that the impact of Linux is at least an order of magnitude more profound than Facebook.

Well, Linux started with Minix, and of course, after its (initial) creation it had a lot of input from everywhere.

I agree it's a more "European" model of development, sure.

Re: Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn

#156

Post by alphydan »

jiggy2011 wrote: post #131
maemilius wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When put on small terms, like this, subsidized education always starts to look bad. Scaling it up makes it seem much more fair. As an American, I understand the concept of doing it yourself and not paying for things that don't benefit you. That said, I also understand that paying extra taxes to get more kids in better schools has more benefit to society than letting me keep that money. Personally, I'd be happy to sub…

But if you allow the tuition payments to be deferred, as is the case in the UK then the question of who can "afford" tuition changes from being predicated on their economic position before they go to university to their expected economic position after university. If student loan repayments are capped at X% of income and you do not believe that getting a university degree will raise your earnings by at least X% then…

>> you do not believe that getting a university degree will raise your earnings by at least X% then it probably is not in your best interest to attend university

I was unaware that the role of university was to take your salary from X to X+Delta. What if you are a better citizen, a nurse (earning less than a secretary, but contributing more), a street artist? What if you earned more as a construction worker, but instead studied science and work part time as a scientist and part time doing community work?

The salary and taxes are not the only measure of your contribution to society and of the positive effect of university.

Re: Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn

#157

Post by lispm »

nhaehnle wrote: post #39
jiggy2011 wrote: post #19

Has there been any extensive research done on relationship between university fees and social mobility? On one hand it seems obvious that if you reduce costs of attending university you remove a barrier that would prevent economically disadvantaged people from attending. But on the other hand, university students, especially those at the best universities disproportionately come from better economic backgrounds and t…

Social mobility in Germany is very low, doing consistently worse than e.g. the Scandinavian countries (I remember seeing sources claim that it is even worse than the US, but there seems to be no agreement on that). However, as far as education is concerned, it would be wrong to blame universities. The German school system is very stratified, "locking in" a child's destiny at a young age. Via parents who understand th…

There are a lot of paths to Universities.

What the German education system recognizes is this: not everyone needs to go to university. There are lots of other satisfying career paths.

Re: Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn

#158

Post by djur »

smm2000 wrote: post #111
VLM wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"or the degree is not needed in the market and you end up with hobby and not a job." There are more destructive forms of welfare than academic credentialism. Its an interesting idea to think about... if you can't get a job, go to school for free collecting degrees and certifications until you get a job. I've checked the numbers and in terms of accounting overhead and criminal justice system overhead it is somewhat ch…

It's useless to send most criminals (especially minorities with 1/3 jail ratio) to community colleges. Majority of them could not even finish high school and still read at fifth grade level after graduation. It's a noble idea but unfortunately education is not for everyone. The only result of sending unprepared people college, will be making college less safe and destroying quality of education for kids who are prepa…

The point is to send them _before_ they become criminals.

Re: Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn

#159

Post by pedrosorio »

jiggy2011 wrote: post #131
maemilius wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When put on small terms, like this, subsidized education always starts to look bad. Scaling it up makes it seem much more fair. As an American, I understand the concept of doing it yourself and not paying for things that don't benefit you. That said, I also understand that paying extra taxes to get more kids in better schools has more benefit to society than letting me keep that money. Personally, I'd be happy to sub…

But if you allow the tuition payments to be deferred, as is the case in the UK then the question of who can "afford" tuition changes from being predicated on their economic position before they go to university to their expected economic position after university. If student loan repayments are capped at X% of income and you do not believe that getting a university degree will raise your earnings by at least X% then…

And in that case, for the average 18 year old, the choice of attending University becomes a gamble (if you're poor) or business as usual (if your parents have money).

Re: Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn

#160

Post by PythonicAlpha »

It should be noted here, that in the past (10-20 years ago), Germany did not have any tuition fees ... and fared very well with this model for many decades.

Only lately, because the German govnmt wanted to save the costs for the universities, they invented the fees with the argument, that with more funding, the quality of education could be better. But many universities just used the money to cover costs, that where not covered any more from the money they got from the country.

So, essentially it was a cost reduction program to reduce costs for the state finance ... thus freeing money that could go to banks and big companies.

The system was not well received by the students and also some German countries dropped the program, thus putting some pressure on the others, since the students prefered the universities without fees. I guess, that was the reason now, that the last country dropped the fees.

In my opinion, countries like GB make a big error by forcing enormous fees unto students. In the result, the students which do not come from millionaires houses are either at the mercy of the banks for decades or many people that well could study, just do not. Thus the nation looses many talents (in both outcomes).

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