Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn • Hacker News Board

Re: Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn

#31

Post by rkrzr » Wed, Oct 01, 2014, 1:58 PM UTC

levosmetalo wrote: post #12

Igglyboo wrote: post #5

It's really crazy how the students reacted to this when the fees were introduced. They were very low compared to the US, less than 1000 euros for an entire year yet the students responded with mass protests and vandalism. On university also had it's master key(ring?) stolen and had to spend a lot of money to redo every lock. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bielefeld_University#Protests_a...

If you don't fight hard going from 0€ to 1000€, then you don't have any chance resisting a raise from 1000€ to 50000€ in the next decade. Just look at what happened to, once affordable, education in USA and do the opposite. In Germany we like to get something in return for the tax we are paying to the state.

Agree 100%, this is exactly what happened in the UK when they increased the upper limit for tuition fees.

Re: Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn

#32

Post by malvim » Wed, Oct 01, 2014, 1:58 PM UTC

pjmlp wrote: post #17

shmerl wrote: post #9

Impressive. I wish US would do the same.

From an European point of view, the US university system is crazy. In many European countries the value of state universities over private ones is very high regarded, that except for a few well renowned exceptions, private universities are seen as places where you buy a title, not earn one. As they mostly get the students that weren't able to go through the national exams for the state universities.

This is EXACTLY the same situation as here in Brazil. Very few well renowned private universities, but the very best ones are the state universities.

Re: Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn

#33

Post by mattjaynes » Wed, Oct 01, 2014, 2:00 PM UTC

Heliosmaster wrote: post #2

* University education? free * Article to read about it? Pay for it. This beautifully sums up the differences of education and news.

Non-paywalled articles on this:

http://www.fchornet.com/news/all-german-universities-will-be...

http://www.dazeddigital.com/artsandculture/article/22027/1/g...

Re: Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn

#34

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Oct 01, 2014, 2:00 PM UTC

levosmetalo wrote: post #12

Igglyboo wrote: post #5

It's really crazy how the students reacted to this when the fees were introduced. They were very low compared to the US, less than 1000 euros for an entire year yet the students responded with mass protests and vandalism. On university also had it's master key(ring?) stolen and had to spend a lot of money to redo every lock. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bielefeld_University#Protests_a...

If you don't fight hard going from 0€ to 1000€, then you don't have any chance resisting a raise from 1000€ to 50000€ in the next decade. Just look at what happened to, once affordable, education in USA and do the opposite. In Germany we like to get something in return for the tax we are paying to the state.

[deleted]

Re: Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn

#35

Post by cmdkeen » Wed, Oct 01, 2014, 2:00 PM UTC

edent wrote: post #23

cmdkeen wrote: post #18

There's a big difference between no tuition fees and "free" education. All this means is that the cost of education is passed on to all tax payers. Now this can be justified, there is utility in having an educated workforce and society. However when everyone is paying there is a need to have a decision about how many people need that education to provide the benefits everyone gets. The UK is seeing these problems wit…

They don't harm your credit rating, but... * You have to declare them when trying to get a mortgage (or any other loan) and so may reduce the amount you are leant. * If you go bankrupt - the loan does not go away. * Want to launch a funky startup? Now the graduates you want to work for you start demanding more money because a higher percentage now goes back to the Student Loan Company. I fought hard against the intro…

All of those things act like any other tax. That's all it is, a tax you may one day stop paying. A mortgage is dependent on your ability to repay, i.e. your net income, if the income tax rate went up then mortgage companies would also reduce the amount they would lend you.

The alternatives are either a graduate tax - which has all of the issues you mention, except you never stop paying it, so potentially pay far more than the cost of your education - or general taxation in which case the people who didn't go to university (generally less well off) are paying for your degree.

Re: Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn

#36

Post by watwut » Wed, Oct 01, 2014, 2:01 PM UTC

jiggy2011 wrote: post #19

Has there been any extensive research done on relationship between university fees and social mobility? On one hand it seems obvious that if you reduce costs of attending university you remove a barrier that would prevent economically disadvantaged people from attending. But on the other hand, university students, especially those at the best universities disproportionately come from better economic backgrounds and t…

"university students especially those at the best universities disproportionately come from better economic backgrounds and this seems to be true everywhere. In this case it doesn't seem fair to tax people who are poor to pay for something that is mainly of benefit to the rich."

That is the argument used to introduce the fees. Once they are introduced, poor person chance to get into university gets even lower. Expensive University basically constitutes huge advantage for kids of the rich, it makes competition for well paid jobs lower.

Moreover, rich in Germany pay more in taxes, so they really pay more.

Re: Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn

#37

Post by taejo » Wed, Oct 01, 2014, 2:02 PM UTC

I'm a student at a German university, and I don't pay tuition fees, but I do pay about 400€ a year in "semester fees", of which the two largest components are "student services" and a compulsory season ticket for regional transport; student union membership and some kind of insurance contribution are also included.

Re: Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn

#38

Post by mkaziz » Wed, Oct 01, 2014, 2:03 PM UTC

cafard wrote: post #26

tobinfricke wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fees were really laughably small by U.S. standards, but fees, once implemented, seem to turn into a "slippery slope." So, as much as I like to mock my German students for complaining about having to pay €200 per semester, I think they were right to protest and "nip it in the bud". For instance, the University of California is formally tuition-free for in-state residents (edit: is this correct?), but over the last…

After one of Mark Edmundson's op ed pleas for students and parents to consider college as non-vocational, I had a look at the University of Virginia's tuition and fees from the late 1970s to recently. Comparing this against the minimum wage, I found that a student could have earned the 1978-1979 tuition and fees working a bit over eight weeks at the minimum wage. For the 2011-2012 school year, it was more than 38 wee…

Is this before or after tax? 38 weeks seems short to me.

Re: Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn

#39

Post by nhaehnle » Wed, Oct 01, 2014, 2:03 PM UTC

jiggy2011 wrote: post #19

Has there been any extensive research done on relationship between university fees and social mobility? On one hand it seems obvious that if you reduce costs of attending university you remove a barrier that would prevent economically disadvantaged people from attending. But on the other hand, university students, especially those at the best universities disproportionately come from better economic backgrounds and t…

Social mobility in Germany is very low, doing consistently worse than e.g. the Scandinavian countries (I remember seeing sources claim that it is even worse than the US, but there seems to be no agreement on that).

However, as far as education is concerned, it would be wrong to blame universities. The German school system is very stratified, "locking in" a child's destiny at a young age. Via parents who understand this and fight tooth and nail to get their child into the highest tier of the school system, it leads to high correlation between parents' and children's academic achievements.

Re: Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn

#40

Post by switch007 » Wed, Oct 01, 2014, 2:04 PM UTC

levosmetalo wrote: post #12

Igglyboo wrote: post #5

It's really crazy how the students reacted to this when the fees were introduced. They were very low compared to the US, less than 1000 euros for an entire year yet the students responded with mass protests and vandalism. On university also had it's master key(ring?) stolen and had to spend a lot of money to redo every lock. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bielefeld_University#Protests_a...

If you don't fight hard going from 0€ to 1000€, then you don't have any chance resisting a raise from 1000€ to 50000€ in the next decade. Just look at what happened to, once affordable, education in USA and do the opposite. In Germany we like to get something in return for the tax we are paying to the state.

It happened in the UK. Fees started at £1,000 in 1998, rising to £3,000 in 2006 and then 2010 (?) fees rose to £9,000.