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U.S. Law Enforcement Seeks to Halt Apple-Google Encryption of Mobile Data

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Re: U.S. Law Enforcement Seeks to Halt Apple-Google Encryption of Mobile Data

#211

Post by bad_user »

> Smartphone communication is “going to be the preferred method of the pedophile and the criminal. We are going to lose a lot of investigative opportunities.”

Wow, the think of the children lines are so overused, I wonder why they aren't obnoxious for regular folks. And I'm a father of a 4-year old and I can really understand the natural urge to protect children from pedophiles, but this is becoming ridiculous, plus as a father I also don't want my child to grow up in a world in which he has no privacy rights. If a device for reading one's mind would be invented, it would instantly be used by government agencies, because investigative opportunities and if law enforcement could do that, than so could criminals and oligarchs - yet our laptops and phones are an extension of our mind and we really aren't far from such a dystopian future.

These people act as if this technology existed since the dawn of men. What on earth did people do before being able to snoop on our digital footprint? And is there any evidence that these investigative opportunities are lowering criminality or are we talking hypothetically?

Re: U.S. Law Enforcement Seeks to Halt Apple-Google Encryption of Mobile Data

#212

Post by raquo »

diminoten wrote: post #182
raquo wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

US has strange views on a lot of things, including the one in question – privacy.

I don't think the US's views on sex and the US's views on privacy are quite comparable, given the 500 year history that comes with our weird prudishness.

Your point, as I understood it, was that jailing children for children pornography is an exception from normal routine because US has strange views on sex. My point is that US views on privacy ("nothing to hide") are also strange (relative to my viewpoint), so that will also be an "exception", and you shouldn't be surprised when these strange views will be applied in the courtroom.

Re: U.S. Law Enforcement Seeks to Halt Apple-Google Encryption of Mobile Data

#213

Post by xnull »

rogerhoward wrote: post #187
xnull wrote: post #103

I hypothesize that this is a coordinated yet simple ruse to rebuild trust in these brands post-Snowden [1][2]. There was similar press coverage regarding the DEA and iCloud encryption that was misreported in a similar way [3]. The Intercept (where Glenn Greenwald is now reporting from) has a story on what data Apple can still easily give away if you do believe they can't decrypt individual machines [4]. But maybe you…

But the article isn't just talking about the NSA and National Security Letters - this is about law enforcement . If Apple and Google claim to be technically unable to comply with LE requests, it won't take long to see whether that is indeed the case or not - unlike national security-related demands, law enforcement won't be able to keep their successes or failures at demanding access to this data a secret. If this wa…

A very good point. Local police will likely be able to access the device but only after calling up the chain. Previous versions of iOS and other smartphones had forensics kits that made it trivial for local law enforcement to grab data out of memory (via DMA/firewire for example) or by device management services. I expect those kits to continue working for devices that have not been powered off.

Re: U.S. Law Enforcement Seeks to Halt Apple-Google Encryption of Mobile Data

#214

Post by tedks »

lutorm wrote: post #51
tedks wrote: post #46

If you support this sort of system, you are saying that individuals should be able to place themselves above democracy. Like it or not, we have a legal system that entitles the government to execute lawfully obtained warrants. Tech companies seeking to make this harder are acting against democracy. It's time for Silicon Valley to decide what side it's on: Democracy, or the alternative.

Our democratic system has enacted laws that say encryption is legal. Why do you think following the law is somehow "acting against democracy" here?

It's in the intent. I don't think anyone is denying that Apple and Google are doing this to make it harder for police to search through user files. They could have implemented this at any point since the inception of AES, and are doing it now because of the backlash against PRISM. They want to demonstrate to users that they care more about them as individuals than they do about their role in a democratic society.

Notice also that your comment, and others respondents to me in this thread, are not disputing my actual point, i.e., that bundling crypto features in products is meant to put individuals above the reach of the democratic legal system.

Re: U.S. Law Enforcement Seeks to Halt Apple-Google Encryption of Mobile Data

#215

Post by ary »

xnull wrote: post #105
ary wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Or they just want criminals to think that all they have to do is buy an Apple or Google phone, and they can't be caught. There is a greater incentive to let Apple or Google do that kind of marketing and quietly exploit the vulnerabilities (ie, what's been happening with the NSA for some time now). If it had the appearance of working but actually didn't you wouldn't hear a peep from any government.

Unless they need to rebuild the reputations of companies that got hurt by the disclosure of their prior partnerships (ahem, which notably included Apple and Google).

After considering this and other comments saying the same I would tend to agree. There could certainly be a PR angle to the whole thing.

Re: U.S. Law Enforcement Seeks to Halt Apple-Google Encryption of Mobile Data

#216

Post by modfodder »

garwahl wrote: post #122
syshax wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, that's how I see it. Since Apple's software isn't open source, it's possible they're lying. However, if they are, at some point the government is going to try to present evidence they gleaned through this lie, and that fact will leak out. I think it would be an enormous risk for Apple to blatantly lie about something they put in black and white on their website. So I tend to think they're telling the truth. May…

> However, if they are, at some point the government is going to try to present evidence they gleaned through this lie, and that fact will leak out. No, they are not. That is the whole point of parallel construction.

But this isn't just about the FBI. It's about all of law enforcement. Sure, the FBI may be practiced enough to hide the facts of discovery, but will every law enforcement agency in the US be as adept. If Apple is lying, or law enforcement finds a way to circumvent the encryption, it will most likely leak at some point, an leaks are becoming more and more common, especially with highly visible targets like Apple and Google (both blackhats and white hats are itching to show up the tech giants).

Re: U.S. Law Enforcement Seeks to Halt Apple-Google Encryption of Mobile Data

#217

Post by tomsthumb »

xnull wrote: post #129
chaz72 wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple has staked their reputation on the line and said "send us an NSL if you like, we have nothing we can give you". And the cryptographic principles, if executed properly, are sound. Maybe they're lying. Maybe Snowden 2.0 will come out next year and tell us the truth and instantly destroy their credibility. That's a gamble I wouldn't take with my company, but it's plausible. See I figure, if you're a threat to Nati…

It's extremely difficult to implement cryptography correctly, and then cryptography != security != privacy. You should also look through the other linked articles. Some of them include features built into iOS devices that already circumvent encryption.

> It's extremely difficult to implement cryptography correctly

The smartest CS undergrad at any vaguely reputable school could probably do this correctly. It shouldn't be a problem at all for one of the biggest companies in America if they actually care.

> then cryptography != security != privacy

Which is a more interesting point and assuming the left side was taken care of we could rapidly approach the right side by doing things like providing more granular permissions to applications.

Re: U.S. Law Enforcement Seeks to Halt Apple-Google Encryption of Mobile Data

#218

Post by chaz72 »

mcintyre1994 wrote: post #192
chaz72 wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Until Apple promised it so explicitly, I'd have said you might be right. True, Google and Facebook make zillions off of monitoring people for advertisers. That will make it harder for them to follow suit, there will be far more weasel words and such when they try. I think those of us that are willing to pay the premium for something that promises more have higher expectations. If they are lying, I believe we'll know…

Out of interest do you have an example of Google's weasel wording this issue? They're getting criticised by all the same people and seem to be doing the same thing - is there actually an advantage either way here? Just to clarify, I'm skeptical on both sides - both companies were in the prism leaks after all. But I haven't seen weasel wording and I'm curious if I missed it.

Actually, no, that was just a prediction. I am making an assumption - and maybe not a fair one - that because Google mines user data on the web that they also mine user data on the phone.

Skepticism seems warranted. With Apple, I try to be skeptical, but with Google, I always assume that I am the product until they demonstrate otherwise.

Re: U.S. Law Enforcement Seeks to Halt Apple-Google Encryption of Mobile Data

#219

Post by ctdonath »

chaz72 wrote: post #114
xnull wrote: post #103

I hypothesize that this is a coordinated yet simple ruse to rebuild trust in these brands post-Snowden [1][2]. There was similar press coverage regarding the DEA and iCloud encryption that was misreported in a similar way [3]. The Intercept (where Glenn Greenwald is now reporting from) has a story on what data Apple can still easily give away if you do believe they can't decrypt individual machines [4]. But maybe you…

Apple has staked their reputation on the line and said "send us an NSL if you like, we have nothing we can give you". And the cryptographic principles, if executed properly, are sound. Maybe they're lying. Maybe Snowden 2.0 will come out next year and tell us the truth and instantly destroy their credibility. That's a gamble I wouldn't take with my company, but it's plausible. See I figure, if you're a threat to Nati…

Considering one of Apple's core axioms is "no comment", entirely sensible & expected that they close that venue for anyone, however influential, to compel Apple to say anything they don't specifically intend to.

Re: U.S. Law Enforcement Seeks to Halt Apple-Google Encryption of Mobile Data

#220

Post by diminoten »

raquo wrote: post #212
diminoten wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think the US's views on sex and the US's views on privacy are quite comparable, given the 500 year history that comes with our weird prudishness.

Your point, as I understood it, was that jailing children for children pornography is an exception from normal routine because US has strange views on sex. My point is that US views on privacy ("nothing to hide") are also strange (relative to my viewpoint), so that will also be an "exception", and you shouldn't be surprised when these strange views will be applied in the courtroom.

I don't think sex and privacy come anywhere near each other, in terms of deviation from the global norm. The US doesn't have any particularly deviant view on privacy from the rest of the world, unlike sex.
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