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How Hong Kong Protesters Are Connecting, Without Cell or Wi-Fi Networks

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Re: How Hong Kong Protesters Are Connecting, Without Cell or Wi-Fi Networks

#81
post #42
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The police can blame the protesters for all the troubles - block traffic, stopping commerce, blocking cell/wifi/BT service. From what I read, not much different than the police strategy used the 99% protest in Wall Street.

I don't recall the US banning twitter or censoring any social network. No prohibition of coverage. Not to mention there was a tremendous amount of sympathetic coverage. Time 2011 person of the year was the protester. It was a huge conversation that entered the common narrative. Apples and Oranges. Yeah, there are best practices for dealing with crowds and there needs to be security at huge protests. The cloak and the…

He is saying that they blamed the protestors for inconveniences caused by police actions not that the police in the US blocked cell service.

The strategy for dealing with the protests in the US was just to wait them out and then when the media got bored they sent in the police to clear out the camps while people weren't paying attention.

Re: How Hong Kong Protesters Are Connecting, Without Cell or Wi-Fi Networks

#82
post #64
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Defending your territory? From what, the people who already live there? The operations in the east were essentially punitive, simply because they didn't support the new government. Yanukovych never sent the army after the protesters, yet the new Kyiv government did... I don't know if you remember the sequence of events, but Donetsk never separated and formed an army until after the massive escalation of violence by t…

Incompetence is not with the Ukrainian army (maybe lack of finance is). The facts are there: Russia is invading Ukraine. http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/08/29... If you still think there aren't any Russian soldiers, in Ukraine, there is a label for that: a troll. Russian soldiers have been killed, interviewed, captured, and shipped back to Russia (not in that particular order, of course) http:/…

> The facts are there: Russia is invading Ukraine.

That's bullshit. Quoting Euromaidan sourced "news" is worse than quoting RT.

If Russians were invading Ukraine, we would not talk about months long conflict. We would be talking about one week, tops. And they would not stay in Donbass, they would stop in Chop.

How such operation works, see Czechoslovakia in 1968. Basically, your top brass wakes up in the morning and is looking into a barrel being held by some polite people.

Re: How Hong Kong Protesters Are Connecting, Without Cell or Wi-Fi Networks

#83
post #70
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Clear case of Crimea Yes. It is quite clear. Please explain me why Crimean Tatars have been kidnapped, murdered, interrogated, and repressed since Russia took over? (rhetorical) http://khpg.org/en/index.php?id=1404852996 http://tsn.ua/politika/rosiya-hotili-zirvati-vistup-tatar-u-... You can call it Imperial Racism - or just Rusczism.

if you know the centuries old history of that region and in particular of relations between Crimean Tatars and the rest of the population there, Russians included - you wouldn't be that surprised. Of course, Russia has a bunch of territories/ethnicities that wish (and have a lot of valid reasons to) they could go free like Estonia, Ukraine, Uzbekistan, ... did. Chechnya would be among the first coming to mind, and if…

I agree with your point of view. Except, I disagree with your statement on oppression. Russians are not oppressed in any case given. Oppressed are the non-Russians.

Most of the Ukrainian soldiers are Russian speaking. Almost anywhere in the country you can find a Russian-taught school (yes, perhaps you need to drive some extra miles). But how many schools are there in Russia that teach Ukrainian? How many schools are there in Russia that teach Georgian? Close to zero; I won't be surprised if it actually is zero. Russian drama TV shows get aired on Ukrainian television. Even most of the ministers' native tongue is Russian.

So Russians are definitely not oppressed in Ukraine. It's a myth and an ongoing propaganda churned out by Putin's machine.

Meanwhile in Russia, you have public events such as "White Wagon", that perhaps resemble a KKK-style lynching, where Russian fascists pick a non-Russian passenger and lynch him in front of the police, with no consequences. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ag1K7fEjwNE Perhaps a single incident, but epitomizes the social divide in Russia, which is continuously fueled by Putin's propaganda machine. (No need to bring up Furguson. Two minuses don't make a plus.)

What about the case where ethnic minorities being denied to leave Russia to visit a UN convention? http://www.vedomosti.ru/politics/news/33685451/malym-zakryli... (sorry could not find an English article)

If you ask me, the war against Russian aggression is not only a fight against Russia, but it is also a fight against racism and discrimination. If you ask any Russian who choses to voice himself, Ukraine remains a safe haven for Russian speakers.

Russians are not being oppressed in Ukraine. Ukrainians and other ethnicities that are non-Russian are oppressed in Russia.

Re: How Hong Kong Protesters Are Connecting, Without Cell or Wi-Fi Networks

#84
post #3

If the authorities sought to disrupt these networks, would it not be possible to jam Bluetooth (and Wi-Fi) signals within a certain area?

The next step would be exchanging messages via NFC.

E.g. say for a p2p-twitter app, users A and B go into the exchange with their own versions of the global p2p-twitter feed, and exit the exchange with a merged version.

You could do federated, store-and-forward direct messaging, too. We already have a protocol for a very similar use-case: SMTP. :) Of course, with a sometimes-offline P2P mesh you usually don't know if any given hop decreases the distance to the destination.

You'd probably end up just merging all existing messages, so that everyone has everyone elses "email", and filter out the messages belonging to you via asymmetric encryption. So it's just an application of the above p2p-twitter thing. Public messages could be unencrypted.

I think some blockchain-based messaging systems work in a similar way, since there everybody has everybody elses messages per definition. Maybe a blockchain-based protocol is a good fit anyway, probably not though since I'm not sure how it would do the merge(A,B) function.

Re: How Hong Kong Protesters Are Connecting, Without Cell or Wi-Fi Networks

#85

Was anyone else wondering what actual protocol FireChat uses (answer: bluetooth), and found it strange that the article only mentioned it once, and not at the beginning?

Correct. They didn't mention alternative points of views either, like "Is it secure", "Is it encrypted", "Is it centralized", "Are there competitors". It's a bit one-sided towards FireChat.

Re: How Hong Kong Protesters Are Connecting, Without Cell or Wi-Fi Networks

#86
It’s good that the weather is really gentle now in Hong Kong.

Here in Ukraine this past winter the “designed in California” didn’t last too long during -13C..-18C nights, even with an external battery, so walkie-talkies were helpful at times. However, the cellular networks did work in the downtown, perhaps with just minor outages, even during the most violent crackdowns.

And to address some of the either Russian trolls or just misinformed minds elsewhere in the comments. I won’t go into much details, just address some points.

- The whole situation in Ukraine was, and is, largely provoked and inflamed by Russia. Empires being what empires are, even fading ones, try to concur and/or influence as much neighbours as possible, especially if a neighbour is posing an indirect threat to the empire’s regime rulers. No need to take my word on it, just study recent conflicts around Russian borders since the 90s.

- All sorts of people, from all kinds of backgrounds, education, income, etc, took part in the protests. From poor farmers and peasants, through students and professors, to entrepreneurs, CEOs of big companies/multinational branches, and other well-off people.

- To call all these people “fascists”, “junta”, is something a Gebbels would do. Especially when coming from a state that has extreme press and internet censorship, where all the power lies in the hands of the state security service, and where sexual/national minorities live under real threat and danger of persecution. Especially ridiculously it sounds given the number of Jews, and well-off ones, taking parts in the protests, alongside the so-called “radicals”.

- Somebody mentioned “Svoboda” and “Pravyj Sektor” as boogeymen. “Svoboda” has like 1% support now; it lost the support greatly during the protests themselves, when people found out that their “radicalism” is only in words, but not in action. The leadership is very money-oriented, and it shows. Regular members are more or less OK, as members political parties go; most are just regular patriots, like you have in the US and elsewhere. “Pravyj Sektor” is really just a bunch of kids; we’ve bought them socks and some underwear during the winter. Aren’t any more radical than most kids their age anywhere in the world.

- Russian propaganda was working very hard all these years against the Ukrainian state, but as we can see, it took root only in some parts of the 2, out of 25, regions. The reasons are simple - these are very “depressed”, poor regions; people live there in constant poverty, without decent jobs, repressed by local feudal lords, without proper education and perspective on life. This is not an excuse for what they’ve started, but at least it explains the causes. In other, considered “pro-Russian” but wealthy, regions the propaganda didn’t take as much root, and after the events of this year, there’s little left of the “pro-Russian” part in them, even as they continue to speak Russian in everyday life.

- As for the West, we’ve seen who’s who now, and what they are worth. That was a hard yet an important lesson. We are learning to rely only on ourselves, and we’ll manage. Also, given that Ukraine has given up the world’s 3rd largest nuclear arsenal in 1994, in exchange for security guarantees, it will be a good lesson for other countries for the future. One which will probably not help improve the global demilitarisation, however.

Thank you for reading, and please excuse the long post.

P.S. Didn’t find my old “Startup News” account credentials, not really much of a poster, but decided not skip this one thread.

Re: How Hong Kong Protesters Are Connecting, Without Cell or Wi-Fi Networks

#87
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

2. some people are spreading rumors and fake information. Yeah that would be government purposefully trying to sabotage the protests.

Or trolls being trolls.

More like good people unwittingly spreading information which they do not know are fake. Memes in the proper sense of the word - idea viruses.

Every circular warning email you got in your email 10 years ago with the words "This happened to a friend of my fathers and is true" and "Share this around! Everyone must know about this!"

Re: How Hong Kong Protesters Are Connecting, Without Cell or Wi-Fi Networks

#88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does it use Wifi? Someone else posted saying it was Bluetooth.

i think its wifi else the reach of network would be far less

It's probably not just Wi-Fi but mix of Wi-Fi, 4G/3G and Bluetooth : http://opengarden.com/apps

Given the density of the protest, Bluetooth could work.

Re: How Hong Kong Protesters Are Connecting, Without Cell or Wi-Fi Networks

#89
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Incompetence is not with the Ukrainian army (maybe lack of finance is). The facts are there: Russia is invading Ukraine. http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/08/29... If you still think there aren't any Russian soldiers, in Ukraine, there is a label for that: a troll. Russian soldiers have been killed, interviewed, captured, and shipped back to Russia (not in that particular order, of course) http:/…

> The facts are there: Russia is invading Ukraine. That's bullshit. Quoting Euromaidan sourced "news" is worse than quoting RT. If Russians were invading Ukraine, we would not talk about months long conflict. We would be talking about one week, tops. And they would not stay in Donbass, they would stop in Chop. How such operation works, see Czechoslovakia in 1968. Basically, your top brass wakes up in the morning and…

Well, 1968 was almost half a century ago.

And USSR is not the same thing as Russia. (Ukraine was unfortunately a part this godforsaken union, and was forced to fight on the side of the empire.) Needless to say, Russia did not invade Czechoslovakia by itself. USSR invaded Czechoslovakia. (If you want to put Russia in the subject, perhaps: Russia invaded Czechoslovakia with the help of its USSR union members.)

Again, Russia ≠ USSR.

Putin realizes this difference, which is why he employs these dirty tactics by lying that "soldiers on vacation" are volunteering to fight along side the terrorists in Ukraine. How these Russian soldiers on T-72 tanks entered Ukraine's territory 20km in is beyond me. http://www.newsweek.com/2014/09/19/russian-soldiers-reveal-t... Kremlin claims they were lost. If they were indeed lost, this proves Russian army's incompetence, otherwise it is another case against Putin and his imperialistic ambitions. Over time the pile of lies and lies gets bigger, and it starts to crumble. This pile of lies has grown and overgrown Putin (~> 1.7m), and it is starting to lean towards him, and he has to pile some more and more lies to keep it from crumbling. But it is falling apart.

As Obama pointed out, Russia is only a "regional power." That region ends where Russian border begins, and this is what we are seeing in Eastern Ukraine: a failing Russian invasion along with a pile of "bullshit" to compensate for incompetence.

> That's bullshit. Quoting Euromaidan sourced "news" is worse than quoting RT.

As per Euromaidan, if you are not happy, perhaps I can entertain you with Ukraine's own RT alternative: Ukraine Today (UT). You can watch it directly on youtube. (a little spoiler: it's not funded by Kremlin nor by the CIA)

https://www.youtube.com/ut

It is quite impressive how quickly they sprung up as a functioning international TV channel. I didn't know you could have a fully functional news station within a couple of months. But then again, we live in a new era, year 2014; not 1968.

Re: How Hong Kong Protesters Are Connecting, Without Cell or Wi-Fi Networks

#90
post #73

I find it interesting that here in Berlin (and other cities in Europe, mostly in Germany), we have this for many years - not just for protesters, but for anyone. However, it's not a smartphone app (the network predates smartphones), but a mesh network of WLAN access points. The name of this project is Freifunk: http://freifunk.net/en/

Here in Buenos Aires, there's a long-running initiative that reminded me of Freifunk. http://buenosaireslibre.org/
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