Earlier quoted context omitted.
Remind me again how much surplus money did US have to fight wars in Iraq ? Please tell me that US is overflowing with so much money that they have an army stationed in Germany for absolutely no rational reason. Why exactly is US spending so much of higher education when most of the public elementary education is good enough to mass produce kids whose only skill is flipping burgers ? Large nations need to allocate mon…
"Why exactly is US spending so much of higher education when most of the public elementary education is good enough to mass produce kids whose only skill is flipping burgers ?" I'm not sure what point you're trying to make about 13 year olds, but I assure you I don't care what you have to say.
Why India's Mars mission is so cheap – and thrilling
101–110 of 190 posts
Re: Why India's Mars mission is so cheap – and thrilling
#102(I posted a similar comment a few months ago.[1] To be clear I have nothing against the India, its space program or its achievements, but it's impossible to discuss the low price of the mission without discussing the elephant in the room) There is clear lack of sterilization techniques being used on the ISRO spacecraft. This is clearly visible in the public photos and videos. NASA spend a great deal of time and steri…
Curiosity is a rover. Rovers require cleanrooms for assembly for the reasons that you just mentioned, since they land. I don't think this is an issue with orbiters. For example, one of the reasons failing orbiters are of concern is that contamination can be an issue if they crash into the surface. See Japanese orbiter Nozomi, for example: http://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2003/11/29/national/experts... Using the exper…
Re: Why India's Mars mission is so cheap – and thrilling
#103Earlier quoted context omitted.
Exactly. Projects like this generate huge amounts of value for a country -- not only because they help to push money around the economy, in terms of salaries and invoices paid to rocket-building companies -- but also in terms of the skills gained by everybody that works on the project, as well as the international capital of being a spacefaring country. Right now, launching satellites in the US is a pain in the ass,…
What is EAR?
Re: Why India's Mars mission is so cheap – and thrilling
#104(I posted a similar comment a few months ago.[1] To be clear I have nothing against the India, its space program or its achievements, but it's impossible to discuss the low price of the mission without discussing the elephant in the room) There is clear lack of sterilization techniques being used on the ISRO spacecraft. This is clearly visible in the public photos and videos. NASA spend a great deal of time and steri…
Curiosity is a rover. Rovers require cleanrooms for assembly for the reasons that you just mentioned, since they land. I don't think this is an issue with orbiters. For example, one of the reasons failing orbiters are of concern is that contamination can be an issue if they crash into the surface. See Japanese orbiter Nozomi, for example: http://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2003/11/29/national/experts... Using the exper…
The ESA picture says its from a thermal and mass model, and the guy in question is hovering over a test fixture.
I can't say much about the ISRO video. I hope it's just press footage of something that isn't the actual flight unit. That would be pretty reasonable. Later in the video you can see the techs wearing gloves pulling the vehicle off a moment of inertia test. It's encouraging, but the fact that they're wearing hair nets while half the guys have giant, uncovered beards is not.
With Curiosity, NASA even went so far as to aim the initial trajectory to miss Mars. This was out of fear that the upper stage of the rocket, which did not have the same amount of contamination control, would collide with the planet.
MOM's orbit is fairly eccentric, so it's not likely to collide with Mars any time soon. I think we have a lot of time to study Mars before we worry about any potential contamination.
Re: Why India's Mars mission is so cheap – and thrilling
#105Earlier quoted context omitted.
The broken window fallacy is that of breaking things and repairing/rebuilding them to generate economic activity, i.e., an endless cycle. The OP is arguing that this mission creates new economic assets and activities that expand India's economic base.
Zizee had 4 paragraphs, and pravda pointed out that paragraph 3 was fallacious. The fact that paragraphs 1 and 2 are not doesn't change this. I have no idea why pravda is being downmodded, beyond silly mood affiliation.
The 'broken window Fallacy' is Bastiat's observation that while the income generated for glaziers from repairing rboken windows is indeed a form of economic activity, and that this is nice enough if you're in the window business, it's economically inefficient because the economic activity merely restores the status quo instead of going to finance new production - had the window remained unbroken, the shopkeeper might have bought a book or a suit of clothes. The glazier's gain is the shopowner's loss and so there's no net improvement.
But that's a wholly inappropriate analogy for this situation of expenditure going towards Indian scientists and technicians, because they were engaged in new and productive work rather than merely receiving a subsidy. The Indian government didn't have an existing interplanetary program that was scrapped and replaced with another; it built one from scratch. In terms of Bastiat's analogy, it would be as if the shopkeeper hired the glazier to install a new window in what had previously been a blank wall.
The direct economic value of measuring whether there is methane in Mars' atmosphere is intangible - just as it would be hard to measure the impact of a newly-added window on a shopkeeper's turnover at the time of its installation. It could also be argued that NASA or some other space agency could conduct the same measurement on some future Mars project, and so the ISRO effort is probably duplicative. But even if the direct economic output of the craft itself is assumed to be zero, the development of the satellite manufacturing and launch capability, which is a net economic gain too, whereas the replacement of a broken window does not have any innovative component (since the prior existence of the window means the capability to make it already existed).
It seems to me that you and the other two posters who are arguing this position are making the implicit assumption that that NASA et al. have a comparative advantage in the development of space technology and that therefore Indian efforts are economically superfluous, in addition to your general distaste for the notion of government as client.
Re: Why India's Mars mission is so cheap – and thrilling
#106(I posted a similar comment a few months ago.[1] To be clear I have nothing against the India, its space program or its achievements, but it's impossible to discuss the low price of the mission without discussing the elephant in the room) There is clear lack of sterilization techniques being used on the ISRO spacecraft. This is clearly visible in the public photos and videos. NASA spend a great deal of time and steri…
Re: Why India's Mars mission is so cheap – and thrilling
#107Earlier quoted context omitted.
It's sort of astonishing to call it perpetual motion, when there really is an enormous multiplier at play. Money is not like mass: it can be created and destroyed; one of the primary roles of central banks is to create and destroy money to stabilize the economy. Moreover, 'zizee is talking about something even more powerful. Space programs can act as huge multipliers on an economy. A country's economy is sort of a cl…
> But there's no zero sum here Government spending via redistribution is absolutely zero sum. Every dollar spent by the government into the economy is one dollar taxed out of the economy. Money that is given to some has to necessarily come from others. Just because the benefits are concentrated and the harm is spread out doesn't change the fact that you've only taken money from A and given to B. No additional wealth…
But you are mistakenly assuming that all government spending is redistributive, as if the only thing the government did was transfer payments. Government also provides services (sometimes by contracting out to the private sector) and invests in physical capital (likewise).
Re: Why India's Mars mission is so cheap – and thrilling
#108Earlier quoted context omitted.
It's sort of astonishing to call it perpetual motion, when there really is an enormous multiplier at play. Money is not like mass: it can be created and destroyed; one of the primary roles of central banks is to create and destroy money to stabilize the economy. Moreover, 'zizee is talking about something even more powerful. Space programs can act as huge multipliers on an economy. A country's economy is sort of a cl…
> But there's no zero sum here Government spending via redistribution is absolutely zero sum. Every dollar spent by the government into the economy is one dollar taxed out of the economy. Money that is given to some has to necessarily come from others. Just because the benefits are concentrated and the harm is spread out doesn't change the fact that you've only taken money from A and given to B. No additional wealth…
Re: Why India's Mars mission is so cheap – and thrilling
#1091. Mindset due to poverty: There are many people below the poverty line so it makes sense for the scientific programs to aim for the cost-effective solutions not cutting-edge.
2. Experimental: If it was your first space mission, you wouldn't exactly load it with gadgets. Missions have a chance to succeed or to end in failure. Investment would only make sense after tasting some success.
3. Cost of living: If you are well-off in India, you may still be poor outside of India. Cost of living is lowest in India (http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/rankings_by_country.jsp). So cost of research and development will be lower than elsewhere too(maybe not everywhere).
4. Media attention(somewhat): It started with the headlines from British news "We pay for India's rocket to Mars" which raised a lot of eyebrows in India. Even though money from aid was used for intended purpose, it was questioned if India needed the aid. (To me its not worth the brouhaha. They will fancy paying for nuclear programmes next.)
5. GDP: US GDP is the largest in the world. They can afford to spend loads of money without worrying (lets say debt crisis was an exception). India has GDP which is smaller by orders of magnitude.
Re: Why India's Mars mission is so cheap – and thrilling
#110Earlier quoted context omitted.
It's sort of astonishing to call it perpetual motion, when there really is an enormous multiplier at play. Money is not like mass: it can be created and destroyed; one of the primary roles of central banks is to create and destroy money to stabilize the economy. Moreover, 'zizee is talking about something even more powerful. Space programs can act as huge multipliers on an economy. A country's economy is sort of a cl…
> But there's no zero sum here Government spending via redistribution is absolutely zero sum. Every dollar spent by the government into the economy is one dollar taxed out of the economy. Money that is given to some has to necessarily come from others. Just because the benefits are concentrated and the harm is spread out doesn't change the fact that you've only taken money from A and given to B. No additional wealth…
Well, at the level of the currency issuer (of which India is one), Government spending is money creation, and not redistribution.