How about reliable electricity and water for your people, then Mars. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_Resources_in_India "Water supply and sanitation in India continue to be inadequate ..." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electricity_sector_in_India "Over 300 million (300 million) people in India have no access to electricity. Of those who do, almost all find electricity supply intermittent and unreliable."
Why India's Mars mission is so cheap – and thrilling
71–80 of 190 posts
Re: Why India's Mars mission is so cheap – and thrilling
#72Earlier quoted context omitted.
> A large proportion of the expense of this mission goes to paying the wages of domestic scientists and engineers in India. This money will in turn get taxed and spent by the recipients and pumped back into the local economy. This is a completely nonsensical line of reasoning, that's why. They're still paying folks to do ostensibly wasteful activities, and you're not going to successfully counter that with your perpe…
It's sort of astonishing to call it perpetual motion, when there really is an enormous multiplier at play. Money is not like mass: it can be created and destroyed; one of the primary roles of central banks is to create and destroy money to stabilize the economy. Moreover, 'zizee is talking about something even more powerful. Space programs can act as huge multipliers on an economy. A country's economy is sort of a cl…
Government spending via redistribution is absolutely zero sum.
Every dollar spent by the government into the economy is one dollar taxed out of the economy. Money that is given to some has to necessarily come from others. Just because the benefits are concentrated and the harm is spread out doesn't change the fact that you've only taken money from A and given to B. No additional wealth or prosperity is being created in that transaction.
Now, it may be the case that once B has the money, he spends or invests it more efficiently (in new skills, new assets or what have you) than A would have. But such a multiplier effect, if it happens, is happening in spite of, not because of, government redistribution.
> Hopefully, at every step of the redistribution, at every split, some wealth was generated
The key word is "Hopefully." It is highly unlikely that a government bureaucracy will distribute money such that it is spent more efficiently and productively than an individual taxpayer would if he still had the money to spend himself.
Yes, the economy creates wealth, but only when productivity increases. Redistribution does not create any wealth, only "spreads it around," except for the rare cases when someone in the bureaucracy makes a better decision with the money than the people who paid it in taxes. But I can't really think of a time that has been the case...
Re: Why India's Mars mission is so cheap – and thrilling
#73Earlier quoted context omitted.
NASA's MAVEN payload was just 4.3 times heavier (65kg vs. 15kg) but cost 9.1 times more ($671M vs. 74M). So NASA is still 2.1 times more expensive per kg of useful payload. And costs scale less than linearly with the payload mass, so a bigger Indian mission would have likely been even more than 2.1 times more efficient than NASA...
What makes you think there's a linear relation between payload weight and cost?
...or that payload weight is correlated with scientific value.
Re: Why India's Mars mission is so cheap – and thrilling
#74Why do people always pass judgment on spending on things they don't agree with as if the money is destroyed. It's not like they pile all the cash onto the rocket and send it to space. Let's just forget for a moment that valuable skills and infrastructure are being created for India in this process and look at where the money is going. A large proportion of the expense of this mission goes to paying the wages of domes…
Exactly. Projects like this generate huge amounts of value for a country -- not only because they help to push money around the economy, in terms of salaries and invoices paid to rocket-building companies -- but also in terms of the skills gained by everybody that works on the project, as well as the international capital of being a spacefaring country. Right now, launching satellites in the US is a pain in the ass,…
Re: Why India's Mars mission is so cheap – and thrilling
#75Earlier quoted context omitted.
It's sort of astonishing to call it perpetual motion, when there really is an enormous multiplier at play. Money is not like mass: it can be created and destroyed; one of the primary roles of central banks is to create and destroy money to stabilize the economy. Moreover, 'zizee is talking about something even more powerful. Space programs can act as huge multipliers on an economy. A country's economy is sort of a cl…
> But there's no zero sum here Government spending via redistribution is absolutely zero sum. Every dollar spent by the government into the economy is one dollar taxed out of the economy. Money that is given to some has to necessarily come from others. Just because the benefits are concentrated and the harm is spread out doesn't change the fact that you've only taken money from A and given to B. No additional wealth…
This talking point does not hold up to scrutiny.
There are plenty of examples where individuals fail to build infrastructure that, if built, would help everyone much more than the cumulative cost to build the infrastructure. The same goes for research and technology development.
Basically, the talking point assumes that individuals are rational economic actors in a rational market, and this is just not true. Additionally, even if the individuals were rational and fully informed, there will be highly suboptimal Nash equilibria.
Re: Why India's Mars mission is so cheap – and thrilling
#76Re: Why India's Mars mission is so cheap – and thrilling
#77Why do people always pass judgment on spending on things they don't agree with as if the money is destroyed. It's not like they pile all the cash onto the rocket and send it to space. Let's just forget for a moment that valuable skills and infrastructure are being created for India in this process and look at where the money is going. A large proportion of the expense of this mission goes to paying the wages of domes…
Exactly. Projects like this generate huge amounts of value for a country -- not only because they help to push money around the economy, in terms of salaries and invoices paid to rocket-building companies -- but also in terms of the skills gained by everybody that works on the project, as well as the international capital of being a spacefaring country. Right now, launching satellites in the US is a pain in the ass,…
Re: Why India's Mars mission is so cheap – and thrilling
#78"They've kept it small. The payload weighs only about 15kg. " Whoa... So basically that whole mission was for 30ish pounds of actual 'useful equipment' in orbit?
NASA's MAVEN payload was just 4.3 times heavier (65kg vs. 15kg) but cost 9.1 times more ($671M vs. 74M). So NASA is still 2.1 times more expensive per kg of useful payload. And costs scale less than linearly with the payload mass, so a bigger Indian mission would have likely been even more than 2.1 times more efficient than NASA...
Re: Why India's Mars mission is so cheap – and thrilling
#79"They've kept it small. The payload weighs only about 15kg. " Whoa... So basically that whole mission was for 30ish pounds of actual 'useful equipment' in orbit?
NASA's MAVEN payload was just 4.3 times heavier (65kg vs. 15kg) but cost 9.1 times more ($671M vs. 74M). So NASA is still 2.1 times more expensive per kg of useful payload. And costs scale less than linearly with the payload mass, so a bigger Indian mission would have likely been even more than 2.1 times more efficient than NASA...
Re: Why India's Mars mission is so cheap – and thrilling
#80Why do people always pass judgment on spending on things they don't agree with as if the money is destroyed. It's not like they pile all the cash onto the rocket and send it to space. Let's just forget for a moment that valuable skills and infrastructure are being created for India in this process and look at where the money is going. A large proportion of the expense of this mission goes to paying the wages of domes…