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Why India's Mars mission is so cheap – and thrilling

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Re: Why India's Mars mission is so cheap – and thrilling

#51
post #24

Why do people always pass judgment on spending on things they don't agree with as if the money is destroyed. It's not like they pile all the cash onto the rocket and send it to space. Let's just forget for a moment that valuable skills and infrastructure are being created for India in this process and look at where the money is going. A large proportion of the expense of this mission goes to paying the wages of domes…

> A large proportion of the expense of this mission goes to paying the wages of domestic scientists and engineers in India. This money will in turn get taxed and spent by the recipients and pumped back into the local economy. This is a completely nonsensical line of reasoning, that's why. They're still paying folks to do ostensibly wasteful activities, and you're not going to successfully counter that with your perpe…

It's sort of astonishing to call it perpetual motion, when there really is an enormous multiplier at play. Money is not like mass: it can be created and destroyed; one of the primary roles of central banks is to create and destroy money to stabilize the economy.

Moreover, 'zizee is talking about something even more powerful. Space programs can act as huge multipliers on an economy. A country's economy is sort of a closed system, but that doesn't mean it can't undergo a multitude of phase changes that free up resources after spending money (even waste fully). Astonishing amounts of infrastructure is needed to support a space program, and a lot of it translates to other industries well. Just as a plant opening in a town may only directly employ a few hundred people, the support infrastructure - from welding shops to hardware suppliers to diners - is huge. Many thousands will be affected by those few hundred workers.

A US example: a plant engineer goes out to lunch. Their salary has already been taxed through withheld federal payroll taxes. At the diner, a 10 buck blue plate special is ordered, and a tip left. The town has a tax on prepared dishes, which is added, and the wait staff will have their wages (and possibly tips) taxed - a wage which some portion of which is was from the lunch. That lunch also goes to support a local farmers group and a national cattle company. And so on; the piece gets smaller and smaller as it splits and redistributes through the local and national economy (and these days likely global). At some point, that money is spent.

But there's no zero sum here. Hopefully, at every step of the redistribution, at every split, some wealth was generated. A service was performed where it wouldn't have without some money. Some taxes were collected and put back into infrastructure which added a new light to the two-lane Main Street making it safer and faster for trucks to go through, a state grant to the local colleges, and a federal appropriation bill that supports local green farmer groups. The light makes more business possible on the far end of town, and drives down the plant's shipping costs a little, leading to a buck fifty more on the quarterly bonus the laborer a got later that year. And I'm leaving the other two alone, as this gets out of hand fast. At some positive, non-zero rate, the economy very slightly accelerated.

A decade later, two more plants from other industries are opening. The town is small, but has been friendly to industry. The first plant has some skilled labor that is sorely needed for these plants, and a few leave for slightly higher wages. The old plant has an established reputation in the town, and eagerly hires some replacement twenty-something's, both for their cheaper cost to stay competitive and to train fresh minds (to correct what they learned from the first ten years of mistakes).

Those skilled workers who got hired for a little more money, just for their exposure to the industry and a few skills picked up applicable to the new plants? They are going to get a blue plate special, but this time with pie. That could yield an extra buck or two to the diner - a buck or two that would never have been bought if the workers didn't get the raise from the minor skills gained from the plant that hired a couple hundred people ten years ago.

Space is like that, but with the accelerator to the floor. Technology from space programs infuse industry across the board, and require skilled labor from every level: from rocket scientist engineers to the guy painstakingly polishing the special steel alloys in a clean room. And they're all becoming slowly more valuable as a result, and they'll earn higher wages, eventually. And that money, gained from that wealth in knowledge and skill, generates more wealth - and eventually money.

Keep that up for long enough, and you've got enough skilled people to keep an economy running indefinitely. Which I suppose detracts from my initial statement: it sorta is a perpetual motion machine. Bootstrap it well, and the system will, in fact, continue to grow. Economies are big, governments are big, and they're only closed systems if you insist on zooming in and putting dotted lines around only money flow.

Amendment: contrast this perhaps with the Superconducting Super Collider. A boondoggle of there ever was one, many thousands were hired for no appreciable result, many hundreds of millions of dollars were literally sunk into a super high tech [partial] ring in the ground, and millions in equipment was manufactured and purchased. And yet, foolish as it turned out to be, it still payed many thousands a wage for a few years, fueling nearby industries with displaced highly skilled laborers now without a job, and apparently local wineries can make use of the stupefyingly expensive tunnels. All the while, the boondoggle pumped money into the hands of people who spent it, who then went on to spend what they received, all of which is getting taxed over and over. Some of that money absolutely had to end back up with the government, just as some of the air you breath was likely also breathed by any arbitrary other human. Even wasteful, such an endeavor was at least useful for it's multiplier effect. (Personally I would have loved to work on the SSC and think it was a shame to kill it, but holy geez it cost a lot - but at least can learn from a cool tech who tested components in an EM anechoic chamber, which inspired a trick I've used to help make windows slightly more reliably energy efficient. Side effects.)

Re: Why India's Mars mission is so cheap – and thrilling

#52

I hope India and China pull off a Mars Direct style mission and beat the US to Mars. The US needs another "Sputnik Moment" to get itself going in space again. I mean for real, not as an esoteric form of federal "pork."

Yes. And competition at a global scale like that should be good for everyone too.

Re: Why India's Mars mission is so cheap – and thrilling

#56

How about reliable electricity and water for your people, then Mars. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_Resources_in_India "Water supply and sanitation in India continue to be inadequate ..." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electricity_sector_in_India "Over 300 million (300 million) people in India have no access to electricity. Of those who do, almost all find electricity supply intermittent and unreliable."

Don't be so short-sighted. Putting an orbiter around Mars on a relative shoestring is likely to generate a lot of inward investment in India, which will help to pay for very expensive things like content-scale infrastructure.

The best comment to date. This 75 million will come back in droves as India now high gears its space exports.

Re: Why India's Mars mission is so cheap – and thrilling

#57

How about reliable electricity and water for your people, then Mars. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_Resources_in_India "Water supply and sanitation in India continue to be inadequate ..." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electricity_sector_in_India "Over 300 million (300 million) people in India have no access to electricity. Of those who do, almost all find electricity supply intermittent and unreliable."

If you could provide reliable electricity and water for 300 million people for $74m ($0.25 per head) then you might have a point, but it's not really a lot of money for a country as large as India.

So true. $75 million is not a lot of money for India. The Prime Minister's Office just spent $50 million on latest equipment for his bodyguards (secret service detail). ONE Indian company just signed a deal with the Nepal government to spend $1 billion for ONE hydro project in Nepal. And it is nowhere in news in India.

Re: Why India's Mars mission is so cheap – and thrilling

#58
post #49

In the words of Vikaram Sarabhai, the founding father of ISRO: "There are some who question the relevance of space activities in a developing nation. To us, there is no ambiguity of purpose. We do not have the fantasy of competing with the economically advanced nations in the exploration of the moon or the planets or manned space-flight." "But we are convinced that if we are to play a meaningful role nationally, and…

[deleted]

Re: Why India's Mars mission is so cheap – and thrilling

#59

I wish someone would write a headline like: "Why 750 million Indian citizens cannot enjoy basic sanitation facilities after 60 years of gaining so called independence of their nation" Seriously....

Seriously?

I gather that you are not an Indian, and if you really are an Indian then either you are an illiterate about what's happening in country, or you are an NRI earning in dollars in US who really don't care about India, except in writing these snarky comments.

If you are not an Indian citizen, you still should know the truth before you talk.

750 million Indian citizens aren't enjoying basic sanitation facilities because of the corruption in India. There was a Politician who was a son of Chief Minister who pledged more than 75 million in an election. This is just one example of the amount of corruption in India. Every state in India are filled with those politicians who are corrupt, and they own huge amounts of Black money.

So, I don't see what is your basis in typing in useless comment, when this money was spent as per the Budget allocation.

And finally, please don't write something unless you know the facts properly. The basic sanitation of all Indian Citizens will be improved, if the Political situation of the country is improved not by stopping Technological Advances.

Sometimes, if you don't have anything to contribute, it's better to close your computer and get out than to write these kinds of comments.

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