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Rich, Black, Flunking

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Re: Rich, Black, Flunking

#131
post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not saying there is _no_ genetic component - I would be surprised if it wasn't. Just that compared to culture it's not important. I didn't read The Bell Curve, but as far as I know (and refreshed with a bit of googling) it states that IQ is partly hereditary - I don't think anybody doubts this - and makes it easy to go further and say some groups of people are smarter. This is most likely true, but still not so i…

These books come out every so often. 5 years ago "emotional intelligence" sold copy. IQ has a heritability coefficient of between .5 and .8. The rest seems to be non-shared environment. IQ is a very good predictor of academic success and future income (.7 to .8 correlation). There's a hell of a lot of research out there that has shown this again and again. I'd like to see Stanovich's definition of "critical reasoning…

> two uncorrelated variables can't both have a correlation coefficient of .8.

Can you prove this? I think that the greatest possible correlation is sqrt(1/2) (around .7), but I have no idea how to prove it.

(Formally, the conjecture is as follows: if X,Y, and Z are random variables, and k is a real constant, with:

  corr(X,Y) = 0
  corr(X,Z) > k
  corr(Y,Z) > k
then k It is indeed possible for corr(X,Z)=corr(Y,Z)=sqrt(1/2), here's an example. With sample space {a,b,c,d}, let X,Y, and Z be:

     a   b   c   d
  X: 1,  0,  0, -1
  Y: 0,  1, -1,  0
  Z: 1,  1, -1, -1
But I ran a program looking for cases with k > .7 and couldn't find anything.)

Re: Rich, Black, Flunking

#132
post #52
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"By default, you should be interested in what your kid is learning." I hope they would learn interesting stuff, but if they don't, should I really try to make them believe it is interesting? I personally hated school for most of my life, and I have a hard time putting my kids through the same thing. Maybe it would help them more if I told them that I understand why they hate school so much. My goal would be to teach…

"My goal would be to teach them how to get through school with the minimum possible effort" This is commendable. You don't have to agree with what they are teaching, but declaring school as evil sets a bad tone. Instead of learning from your mistakes, your kid(s) just inherit the animosity. Unless you enjoy homeschooling* then schools will always have aspects of it you won't like. You don't practice the same learning…

I finished 3rd grade reading 5th grade books. In the 4th and 5th grade I was outside playing basketball while the rest of class had to complete their reading assignments.

I commend your accomplishments. Still, it seems there was an opportunity lost here. Instead of allowing you to continue to advance, you were held back (in a way) until the rest of the kids caught up to you.

Similar experiences in my own earlier education soured my taste for school, though in my case I remember being given explicit directions to stop working ahead and wait for the class to catch up, on multiple occasions.

Re: Rich, Black, Flunking

#133
post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stupid and illogical ideas usually do a great job of explaining complex and subtle phenomena - its too bad that they're stupid and illogical. At least have the courage of your convictions and be brave enough in the truth of your pronouncements to say what you really mean: "White people are smarter than Black people on average, by their very nature". Perhaps you don't say it because, as is often the case, utterance of…

Please do us the favor of explaining why you believe his idea is stupid and illogical. If you have just taken that on faith, that's not very helpful.

In hindsight, your question is far more stupid than his "idea". It's called the principle of insufficient reason; we aren't to suppose an a priori difference amongst type without proof - so the burden of proof is on the supposer. That you would ask me to explain why his idea is illogical, without first establishing that his claim is based in logic is justification enough for labeling your question stupid.

Re: Rich, Black, Flunking

#134
post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please do us the favor of explaining why you believe his idea is stupid and illogical. If you have just taken that on faith, that's not very helpful.

In hindsight, your question is far more stupid than his "idea". It's called the principle of insufficient reason; we aren't to suppose an a priori difference amongst type without proof - so the burden of proof is on the supposer. That you would ask me to explain why his idea is illogical, without first establishing that his claim is based in logic is justification enough for labeling your question stupid.

Haven't you simply assumed uniformity? By the way, you called it an "idea" first, not me. And it's a little disappointing for someone who's new here to be resorting to the use of insulting labels so quickly.

Re: Rich, Black, Flunking

#135
post #59
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your comments about low achievement for group defense/satisfaction are also seen in Elton Mayo's Hawthorne Studies ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elton_Mayo ) in a contact that's not related to race. As a Jew you're about as far away from "Underacheivement as a group Defense Mechanism" as it's possible to get. The history of the world is filled with stories of people who have lost their way, their identity and become…

Hi CTurner, I don't know why you were downmodded... what you said makes perfect sense. I am firmly in the camp of Achieve and Prosper. Being Jewish helps :) , but the Immigrant bit was the mainstay of my comment. jews have been thrown out of lots of countries (including Egypt/Israel/Iran in Bible) so it may be in our blood to be Immigrants and thus to trust most in the care you can provide to your own family via succ…

As far as I can remember, Jews haven't been thrown out of Iran. Expelled from Spain, discriminated against via the pogroms of east Europe, but at least in my family's city of Esfahan, Jews have always been welcome. Many have immigrated to Israel, but not out of a forced migration, rather they moved to be in the "homeland".

Re: Rich, Black, Flunking

#136
post #135
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hi CTurner, I don't know why you were downmodded... what you said makes perfect sense. I am firmly in the camp of Achieve and Prosper. Being Jewish helps :) , but the Immigrant bit was the mainstay of my comment. jews have been thrown out of lots of countries (including Egypt/Israel/Iran in Bible) so it may be in our blood to be Immigrants and thus to trust most in the care you can provide to your own family via succ…

As far as I can remember, Jews haven't been thrown out of Iran. Expelled from Spain, discriminated against via the pogroms of east Europe, but at least in my family's city of Esfahan, Jews have always been welcome. Many have immigrated to Israel, but not out of a forced migration, rather they moved to be in the "homeland".

They were captured from Israel and put in exile in Iran, Iraq (Babylon back then) by Nebuchadnezzar ::

http://ancienthistory.about.com/cs/people/g/nebuchadnezzar.h...

Later they were freed to go back to remnants of Jerusalem.

Re: Rich, Black, Flunking

#137

The article has enriched me by a new concept: voluntary vs involuntary minorities. Thanks, upvoted. A disturbing thought: if black racist sentiment says "Plato and hypotenuses are for whites", and white racist sentiment says "crime is for blacks", the performance disparity between the two racist asshole groups isn't all that surprising! I'd also be very interested in similar in-depth causal studies on the gap between…

>I'd also be very interested in similar in-depth causal studies on the gap between white and Jewish academic achievement I'm not sure what you mean here. There are European White Jews (They are the Jews with elevated IQ, Ashkenazi), African Jews, Oriental Jews, and so on. You can't say that Jews are not white or Jews are not black. You'd be surprised by the number of blond hair, blue eyed Jews in Israel. There are Je…

You'd be surprised by the number of blond hair, blue eyed Jews in Israel.

I was. I noticed this on my trip to Israel in 2007. Even as a total WASP (blonde, blue eyes) you can still be mistaken for a Jew in some places.

Re: Rich, Black, Flunking

#138
I made it pretty well despite having a somewhat challenging childhood. So did many of my friends. Here's two quick stories:

- My most influential mentor was born in the ghettos of London and dropped out of middle school. When he was 12, his home was raided by the police and he had a gun to the back of his head as his brother was arrested for dealing drugs. He can't read or write very well and he's dyslexic. He became a construction worker. Now he's running one of the most profitable construction firms in the Middle East and owns properties in five or six countries. He makes about $20,000 per month in salary and bonuses, not including his investments.

- My best friend had the hell beaten out of him by his father, until he got big enough to fight back and eventually kicked the hell out of his Dad, which then ended in an uneasy truce. He dealt drugs in high school, got into college, and dropped out. He became a self made millionaire at age 24. He's 29 now, lives in Bel Air in a three million dollar home, and in a bad year he makes $200,000.

Me? I dropped out of two high schools and left home at age 16 or 17, just scrapping here and there to get by. I then dropped out of another university. I didn't have what you'd call an easy childhood, but I did okay too.

A lot of my friends and mentors are like this. We're all self-made - we get along sort of okay with old money people, but fit right in with entrepreneurs and self made people. Many of them come up from hard times. An acquaintance of mine is 60ish, Polish, and spent her childhood in a concentration camp. Her family became wealthy black-marketing goods past the Communist lines for sale, and eventually a branch of their family came to America. She's a psychologist, her husband is some sort of businessman.

Everyone successful I know internalizes their problems - that means they blame themselves and take responsibility. This is key - if other people are doing things to you, then you can't change that and you're stuck. But if everything is your fault and responsibility, you can change that and win. So, dyslexic? Up to me to deal with. Racism? Up to me to deal with. Grew up poor? Up to me to deal with. Spent childhood doing forced labor in a Nazi factory? Up to me to deal with. Abused? Up to me to deal with. Speak very lower-class English? Up to me to deal with. No English? Up to me to deal with.

Now, I remember some sort of study that quoted: "People who internalize failure and externalize success are less happy but more successful. People who externalize failure and internalize success are more happy and less successful."

The "it's my fault, and my problem, and I'll deal with it" attitude makes you more successful and less happy. As a bonus, everything good that happens is luck and a blessing and can't be counted on. You'll be less content, much less content, but go much further.

So me? I always blame myself. "Partner stole a lot of money? That's my fault, I should've been paying attention to the finances." Success? "Got an important order? That's good luck, can't count on that in the future."

Most people do the opposite. "Life is hard and unfair, but everything I've achieved despite that is because I'm awesome." Everyone successful I know - "I've been dealt a good set of cards, I'm extraordinary lucky, and every mistake and hardship is on me." Less contentment, less surface happiness, much more accomplishment and triumph. It's the only way to the highest levels of accomplishment in any field.

Re: Rich, Black, Flunking

#139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Races are extended families. People in a race are genetically and genealogically closer to each other than to people outside of it. This racial clustering of relatedness is empirically testable. Race is not a social construct.

You're conflating two distinct concepts. By the genetic definition, a 3/4 European 1/4 African would be white. By the social definition, a 3/4 European 1/4 African would be black.

According to whom?

My roommate in college was half-Haitian half-Portugese and identified more as European. My near 100% African-American buddy I played cards with identified himself as fully black. A half-Carib half-French (black skin tone) girl I knew identified as French. In London, a good friend who is half-Arabic half-Indian identifies equally as Arabic and Indian. My three-quarters Chinese one-quarter Japanese friend raised in Beijing identifies as pure Chinese. I think a 1/4th African 3/4ths European blood person raised in a predominantly black community would identify as black, and raised in a non-black community would identify as European.

All my data is from people who live in international coastal cities though, so maybe it's different in various provinces and less affluent middle-of-country areas.

Re: Rich, Black, Flunking

#140
post #12

Reminds me of a passage from Philip Greenspun's article, How to Become as Rich as Bill Gates, http://philip.greenspun.com/bg/ : When I arrived at MIT as a first-year graduate student in electrical engineering and computer science, I asked a professor for help with a research problem. He said "The reason that you've having trouble is that you don't know anything and you're not working very hard." A friend of mine was…

Thomas Sowell told a similar tale about himself as an undergrad at Harvard. He had transferred from Howard, and was on the way to flunking out do to poor work habits. Some quotes from p.118 fo his "A Personal Odyssey" (hardcover):

"My work at Howard was a further handicap, for that experience gave me no inkling of the kind of time and effort required at Harvard, and in fact lulled me into a false sense of security. I thought I was being a conscientious student, so I was shocked one day when Nort [his roommate] suddenly said to me:

"Tom, when are you going to stop goofing off and get some work done?"

"Goofing off! I didn't know what he was talking about. But I learned the hard way when the mid-term grades came out."

This was about 1956. He pulled his shit together and graduated magna cum laude.

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