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Rich, Black, Flunking

eastbayexpress.com

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Re: Rich, Black, Flunking

#121
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> score the same on standardized tests Statistically that's not true. I don't understand what you're trying to say.

Ahh, ok, this is a case of "[Citation Needed]" and I am going to ask you first. PS: It's been a few years since I read that finding so it's going to take me a while to find it again. Edit: Americans that are 1/4 "African" tend to identify themselves as African. This seems odd to me but it's actually the case.

http://www.springerlink.com/content/6dydh0fawxuuhg1r/

The African American adolescents had a lower birth weight, a lower verbal IQ, and a higher number of sexual partners than did White adolescents. For each characteristic, the mixed race mean fell between the means of the two parental populations.

Re: Rich, Black, Flunking

#122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That theory isn't my own. High IQ among East Asians is fascinating. The fact that they can migrate to the US, and perform as well or better than others, even if they are in the lower socioeconomic tier, tends to make me think that genetics does play a large part in IQ. I do not believe that it is the sole factor though. This is my take on it. If your child has a really low IQ, then it will be a hard life for your chi…

If your child has an average or higher IQ, then IQ stops being a factor and attitude, values, and work ethic play a bigger role. No. If you're willing to believe IQ is genetic, you must also believe IQ is is a stronger factor than work ethic - otherwise Jews would've been selected for work ethic instead. It certainly sounds like an easier variable for evolution to optimize. Not sure if you got my point about Koreans.…

Good argument (IQ more important than work ethic), but also possible are:

1) sufficient work ethic may be culturally transmissible enough that genetic selection pressure is reduced

2) work ethic may be as strongly selected for genetically, but is more complicated to implement via random genetic variation than higher IQ

Re: Rich, Black, Flunking

#123
post #94

"On average, black students earned a 1.9 GPA while their white counterparts held down an average of 3.45" The ratio between black and white GPAs = .55 "Ogbu worked from the 1990 census data, which showed that 32.6 percent of the black households and 58 percent of the white households in Shaker had incomes of $50,000 a year or more" The ratio between number of blacks/white making above $50k/yr = .56

3+3=6, 30/5=6. Sorry for the snark, but what's your proposed interpretation? That it's all socioeconomic?

Yes, the parent post evokes some ridiculous reverence for ".55 is very close to .56". At least compare ratio of average income per race to ratio of GPA, not some bizarre ratio of "% > threshold". I could probably find an income threshold so that the ratios are exactly equal.

Re: Rich, Black, Flunking

#124
post #12

Reminds me of a passage from Philip Greenspun's article, How to Become as Rich as Bill Gates, http://philip.greenspun.com/bg/ : When I arrived at MIT as a first-year graduate student in electrical engineering and computer science, I asked a professor for help with a research problem. He said "The reason that you've having trouble is that you don't know anything and you're not working very hard." A friend of mine was…

> The professor replied "Oh... does your pussy hurt?"

The funny thing about this is that I'll bet if that resident socked that professor in the face, the 'tough guy' routine would drop pretty quickly. In any case, I don't think that trying to turn Med School into boot-camp is necessarily the right thing to do. If all those students take after that professor I shudder to think of what their bedside manor would be like:

  Patient: The pain is coming back again. Can I have some morphine?
  Doctor: Suck it up maggot! Are you crying for your mommy again?

Re: Rich, Black, Flunking

#125
post #20

Biological explanations, while non-PC, do a rather good job of explaining the available evidence.

Stupid and illogical ideas usually do a great job of explaining complex and subtle phenomena - its too bad that they're stupid and illogical.

At least have the courage of your convictions and be brave enough in the truth of your pronouncements to say what you really mean: "White people are smarter than Black people on average, by their very nature".

Perhaps you don't say it because, as is often the case, utterance of foolishness is its own reminder.

Re: Rich, Black, Flunking

#126
post #13
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe parents are right in not being that interested in schooling. I think I wouldn't be. You'd be doing your kids a great disservice. School is mostly about rote learning, fitting in and being a good worker drone. Only if that's what you want it to be about. My parents took a great interest in my schooling and I feel that those years where both educational and formative. First and foremost they where willing to ackn…

I hope my kids would do reasonably well in school. I wouldn't say "whatever" if they brought home very bad marks. I just would want to avoid making them believe that school is the only thing that matters. I acknowledge that it is necessary to learn putting up with unloved tasks - I am just not convinced that learning that has to take 13 years (length of school in my country). Maybe a couple of years of boredom could…

> I would certainly be very interested in making my kids become autonomous learners and achievers.

You can't really do this by leaving them to their own devices in the school-system and using report cards as a 'checkpoint system' to evaluate how well they are doing. Remember that this study was K-12, not just high school or middle school students. When you're raising your kids you are molding them into what they will become, so you need to have a more hands-on approach early in their life to point them in the right direction for later on (when small deviations/whatever don't matter as much/have less effect).

Re: Rich, Black, Flunking

#127
post #69

It seems to me that a much of the criticism could have been defused with some slightly different methodology. Some statistics that might been good ammunition (each gathered with rates of several different cohorts: white, black-non-immigrant, black-immigrant, non-black-immigrant) * # of hours spent on homework * # of hours parents spent with children on school-related activities * Rate of parental participation in sch…

I've also read some very interesting ethnographic studies about the effects of poverty, including ones about the parenting styles of different class levels.

The most staggering (to me) finding was that poor African Americans (not just blacks — specifically Americans) ask their small children fewer questions that the parents already know the answer to (e.g. "What's that?? Right! That's a kitty!"), say "No" way more often, and expect unquestioning obedience rather than questions, exploration and creativity.

Lower class whites also trend that way in their parenting styles, but not to the same degree.

And of course, parenting styles tend to transfer from generation to generation. Thus the whole "I'm becoming my mother" and "I want to be a better father than my father was" cliché, heritability of depression and also the legacy of child abuse.

When you think that yeah, really, in terms of the number of generations, it was not long ago at all that these people's ancestors were bought and sold like property.

Combine the slavery aspect with the parenting aspect -- and the fact that parents act like their parents -- and you can see how, as a race in America, those kids could be behind, even if their families are much wealthier now.

Their parents' parents probably were not. To say nothing of their parents' parents' parents.

It was this realization I had, more than anything else (in addition to a visit to London), that made me realize that American society truly was racially biased -- at a much deeper level than most people talk about.

These sociological findings are not new or obscure -- and yet, there are so very few programs to help break the cycle by helping those families improve their parenting.

Re: Rich, Black, Flunking

#128
post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it can't. I am doing research on medical robotics/robotic analogs for surgical practice. Psychologically you can't create the same feelings when the people know it is fake.

Ok, but when it's real and people tell you that they're beyond their limit, in some fields, pushing further is a bad idea . Piloting, mountaineering and surgery come to mind immediately.

I think the real point is that, when people don't know their limits, they might think that they're somewhere below where they really are, rather than somewhere above. If the person's output is still great and they aren't making any mistakes, don't let them quit; keep pushing until they actually start to falter. After doing that a few times in relatively safe environments, you can be sure they'll actually know when to say stop, rather than trusting an uncalibrated instrument (their opinion of themselves.)

Re: Rich, Black, Flunking

#129
post #125
post #20

Biological explanations, while non-PC, do a rather good job of explaining the available evidence.

Stupid and illogical ideas usually do a great job of explaining complex and subtle phenomena - its too bad that they're stupid and illogical. At least have the courage of your convictions and be brave enough in the truth of your pronouncements to say what you really mean: "White people are smarter than Black people on average, by their very nature". Perhaps you don't say it because, as is often the case, utterance of…

Please do us the favor of explaining why you believe his idea is stupid and illogical. If you have just taken that on faith, that's not very helpful.

Re: Rich, Black, Flunking

#130
post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stupid and illogical ideas usually do a great job of explaining complex and subtle phenomena - its too bad that they're stupid and illogical. At least have the courage of your convictions and be brave enough in the truth of your pronouncements to say what you really mean: "White people are smarter than Black people on average, by their very nature". Perhaps you don't say it because, as is often the case, utterance of…

Please do us the favor of explaining why you believe his idea is stupid and illogical. If you have just taken that on faith, that's not very helpful.

Simply - race is a bastardization of many historic cultural sentiments; it has almost no use in relation to human-being;

http://www.aaanet.org/stmts/racepp.htm

http://www.nature.com/ng/journal/v36/n11s/full/ng1455.html

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