Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Israel’s N.S.A. Scandal

nytimes.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

91–100 of 146 posts

Re: Israel’s N.S.A. Scandal

#91

Post by bengrunfeld »

dismal2 wrote: post #84
bengrunfeld wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The violence isn't a symptom of their treatment. IS, Al-Qaeda, and Hizballah aren't "sequestered into ghettos" and they happily indulge in the same violence as Hamas. Maybe you should visit Israel and have a Falafel?

Western involvement cannot be ignored in analysis of the middle east ever since the end of WW1. Extremism is the product of continuos destabilization of democracies, funding of extremist groups and puppet regimes. Pick pretty much any country, specifically ones that the Western powers have been having their war of terror in recently and look at the history. Iran, Iraq, Syria, Afganistan, etc, etc, etc. Al Qaeda was c…

The terrorism that Israel deals with predates significant US involvement in the Middle East. Bedouin attackers, not to mention marauding arabs from Lebanon, Syria, Jordan and Egypt have been attacking Jews since before the 1920's.

You can blame what you want on western influence, but the truth is - and you'll know this if you've lived with Arabs - that they don't subscribe to western ideals of pacifism and anti-violence. It's not what they believe in.

For example, I witnessed an honor killing in 2002. It was done in the middle of the village with all the inhabitants cheering. Not sure you'd get the same reaction if you did that in Times Square.

Will happily read the wikipedia article.

Re: Israel’s N.S.A. Scandal

#92

Post by bjourne »

ronreiter wrote: post #51

The US is a close ally of Israel for obvious reasons. Israel wants to better defend itself, so it co-operates with the N.S.A. This is what Israel needs to defend itself, and Israel probably does the same thing to help defend the US. There will always be a conflict between privacy and security, you can stick to one on expense of the other, but you will never be able to "fix" things.

Wait a minute. What are those "obvious reasons" you speak of?

Re: Israel’s N.S.A. Scandal

#94

Post by nl »

alan_cx wrote: post #16
CamperBob2 wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those working within the system should follow Snowden's example, IMHO. Force the government to either stop these practices altogether, or reveal their true cost to the American way of life.

Why should any insider do that? Snowden did it, and look what happened. Nothing. Sad truth is, the majority don't care. If they did, then it would be reflected in voting, and things would change. But no. Mean while, Snowden is a wanted man in exile. Don't get me wrong, I don't like this one little bit, but it seems I'm in a minority.

Read Assange's writing on how leaks and the threat of leaks destroy the efficiency of the state security apparatus.

The game is much longer that a couple of individual leakers.

Re: Israel’s N.S.A. Scandal

#95

Post by [deleted] »

bengrunfeld wrote: post #63
BugBrother wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most every democracy with serious and continuing problems with terrorism throw out the law book and human rights. Afaik, this goes for USA, Britain, Israel, Germany, Spain and Italy. And probably more cases. (Note " continuing problems ". e.g. Breivik was a lone crazy.) The reason is shown by the grandparent comment; terrorism is optimized to scare voters. And politicians are scared of hysterical voters, they need to…

I've went through 9 terrorist attacks in Israel before I joined the military - I lived in downtown Jerusalem during the Second Intifada. In the other countries, you're right - there is no excuse for getting rid of personal rights and freedoms, but in Israel the sheer number of terrorist attacks cause the reality to be different. If we didn't have the intel, we could never stop the terrorists, and that is simply unacc…

[deleted]

Re: Israel’s N.S.A. Scandal

#96

Post by colordrops »

sabalaba wrote: post #90
guelo wrote: post #41

The way Israel owns American military and foreign policy should be a national shame. Reminds me of this other story about Israel going behind Obama's back to get weapons straight from the Pentagon. http://online.wsj.com/articles/u-s-sway-over-israel-on-gaza-...

Political influence arising from an active group of Jewish- Americans lobbying their own government not "ownership". If you're against it, you too are free to get involved, form a special interest group, and lobby our government in the other direction.

That's not how a democracy is supposed to work. Extreme influence by a small group of individuals outside of the voting process indicated a broken system.

Re: Israel’s N.S.A. Scandal

#97

Post by colordrops »

ronreiter wrote: post #51

The US is a close ally of Israel for obvious reasons. Israel wants to better defend itself, so it co-operates with the N.S.A. This is what Israel needs to defend itself, and Israel probably does the same thing to help defend the US. There will always be a conflict between privacy and security, you can stick to one on expense of the other, but you will never be able to "fix" things.

How is Israel any different from any other country? What's so obvious about why they are a close ally?

Re: Israel’s N.S.A. Scandal

#98

Post by [deleted] »

colordrops wrote: post #97
ronreiter wrote: post #51

The US is a close ally of Israel for obvious reasons. Israel wants to better defend itself, so it co-operates with the N.S.A. This is what Israel needs to defend itself, and Israel probably does the same thing to help defend the US. There will always be a conflict between privacy and security, you can stick to one on expense of the other, but you will never be able to "fix" things.

How is Israel any different from any other country? What's so obvious about why they are a close ally?

[deleted]

Re: Israel’s N.S.A. Scandal

#99

Post by dllthomas »

snarfy wrote: post #89
dllthomas wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"could even be interpreted as treason." That seems far-fetched. Edited to add: Just to be clear, "not treason" doesn't mean "good"; "not deplorable"; or even, necessarily, "not deserving of the death penalty" - it just means "not treason".

Not really. Treason requires we be at war, but the 'war on terror' never really ends.

Any reasonable interpretation requires that someone involved (either the traitor or a person specifically aided by the traitor) be engaged in "making war against the US." There being a war isn't anything like sufficient, and not all criminal acts make one "an Enemy of the United States," foreign national or not.

Re: Israel’s N.S.A. Scandal

#100

Post by BugBrother »

dismal2 wrote: post #84
bengrunfeld wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The violence isn't a symptom of their treatment. IS, Al-Qaeda, and Hizballah aren't "sequestered into ghettos" and they happily indulge in the same violence as Hamas. Maybe you should visit Israel and have a Falafel?

Western involvement cannot be ignored in analysis of the middle east ever since the end of WW1. Extremism is the product of continuos destabilization of democracies, funding of extremist groups and puppet regimes. Pick pretty much any country, specifically ones that the Western powers have been having their war of terror in recently and look at the history. Iran, Iraq, Syria, Afganistan, etc, etc, etc. Al Qaeda was c…

Interesting link.

Since the cold war, the US involvement seems to be in non-democracies exclusively. (I thought Venezuela was a case, but the page claims that wasn't proven?) [Edit: Maybe the coup against Aristide in Haiti? I don't know enough.]

Frankly, I see a big difference between on one hand a country and its population -- and on the other, a junta that has stolen a country. If such a junta is ousted it is a good thing, as long as it isn't completely fubared as in Iraq 2003 (Libya might also end up even worse than under the last pack of murdering rapists).

My main problem with the US administration right now is Obama's unwillingness to do something about Syria. Assad is no lesser murderer and torturer than IS.

Post reply on HN