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Tech salary insights from 1.2M foreign worker visas

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Re: Tech salary insights from 1.2M foreign worker visas

#101

Post by Iftheshoefits »

refurb wrote: post #69
Iftheshoefits wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here in the US we basically have little or no social safety net, and certainly few meaningful regulations and laws protecting labor. Our "wow just wow" salaries have less buying power than yours, because any difference in the margins is eaten up by having to use the additional salary for basic services you would be able to (mostly) take for granted as being government supplied (via taxation and other means).

Little to no safety net? What are we spending 50% of the federal budget on then?

Mainly corrupt, well-connected private businesses who take a generous cut of the benefits the government contracts them to distribute, one way or another.

Re: Tech salary insights from 1.2M foreign worker visas

#102

Post by bowlofpetunias »

victorantos wrote: post #77
thejdude wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's low to you? Wow. Just wow. Over here in Europe (or at least Germany) salaries are incredibly uniform (doesn't really matter if you suck or get as much done in a day as others in 1-2 weeks; if your bugs get constantly reopened or your code is rock-solid), and most people seem to get maybe 35-50k€ after graduation (diploma/master's degree).

I partially disagree. I know people, IT contractors(.NET) that got 490 euro/day in Germany

That's also quite low. (When I did contractor work (PHP) in the Netherlands almost a decade ago I already charged 500 euro/day, and up to 80 euro/hour for certain gigs.)

And none of that really amounts to much if you subtract the taxes, overhead and most of all the time spent between gigs.

If you do well you can make out considerably better than on a salary, but still, 490 per day for a .NET engineer (biggest shortage there is in IT in Europe) contractor is on the low end.

Re: Tech salary insights from 1.2M foreign worker visas

#103

Post by stephencanon »

kissickas wrote: post #20
captainaj wrote: post #13

Engineers are just middle class who didn't get screwed. The real bubble is in the medical industry and Wall Street and it's not gonna pop any time soon.

Some would say that the medical industry isn't seeing a bubble, as much of the inflation in prices and salaries is going straight to the insurance companies - so the real bubble is in Wall Street and Wall Street.

s/insurance companies/private hospitals and specialists willing to engage in questionable billing practices/

Re: Tech salary insights from 1.2M foreign worker visas

#104

Post by Domenic_S »

thetrb wrote: post #76
Domenic_S wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have to consider housing cost as a % of your salary, not as a % of itself. For example, say your rent is $1000 and your salary is $100k. A 10% increase of rent is $100; a 1% salary increase is $1000. Net gain $900.

The salary in this example is per year, the rent is per month. So actually a 10% rent increase is $1200 per year and a 1% salary increase is $1000 per year for a net loss of $200.

Whoops, you're right. Point still stands though, comparing growth the way the GP did is misleading.

Re: Tech salary insights from 1.2M foreign worker visas

#105

Post by Domenic_S »

seiji wrote: post #62
Domenic_S wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have to consider housing cost as a % of your salary, not as a % of itself. For example, say your rent is $1000 and your salary is $100k. A 10% increase of rent is $100; a 1% salary increase is $1000. Net gain $900.

Excellent point except for the math mistake! A 10% rent increase in $1000/month rent make the new rent $1100/month, so your total additional cost is $1200/year, not $100/year! Then , on top of all that, your salary increase is taxable. A $1,000 salary increase will only get you about an extra $600 per year. So, you're certainly not coming out ahead. My actual numbers are a $300/month rent increase (which totals $3,60…

Meh, land is an asset, and they aren't making any more of it. A reasonable person would expect use cost to increase over time, especially in high-population centers like SF and NYC where the game is basically "is someone else as qualified as you willing to pay me more?" -- which is, incidentally, the same game we play with our salaries.

That's why fixed-rate mortgages are so great. Your housing payment is guaranteed not to rise! (taxes notwithstanding)

Re: Tech salary insights from 1.2M foreign worker visas

#106

Post by CalRobert »

thejdude wrote: post #19
simonsarris wrote: post #15

Why are tech salaries so low? Especially from these companies with large profit margins and huge revenue per employee numbers. It seems like engineers have captured almost nothing of the fruit of their labors.

That's low to you? Wow. Just wow. Over here in Europe (or at least Germany) salaries are incredibly uniform (doesn't really matter if you suck or get as much done in a day as others in 1-2 weeks; if your bugs get constantly reopened or your code is rock-solid), and most people seem to get maybe 35-50k€ after graduation (diploma/master's degree).

You might want to consider Ireland or the UK if your spoken English is as good as your written English. Salaries aren't quite bay area, but they're better than what you describe, especially for a master's!. With 20 days of vacation a year and people who don't take it for granted you'll spend all weekend working I have no intention to return to the US.

Re: Tech salary insights from 1.2M foreign worker visas

#107

Post by Domenic_S »

cylinder wrote: post #72
simonsarris wrote: post #15

Why are tech salaries so low? Especially from these companies with large profit margins and huge revenue per employee numbers. It seems like engineers have captured almost nothing of the fruit of their labors.

That's what I was thinking. $120,000/yr in SF or really anywhere in California is firmly middle class if you're trying to raise a family.

Depends.. $120k per person or $60k each?

Re: Tech salary insights from 1.2M foreign worker visas

#108

Post by kelukelugames »

ryandrake wrote: post #78
potatolicious wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These numbers seem low for just base. $120K in NYC for a senior engineer is low - anecdotally I see it more at $150-170K nowadays. I don't think there's a good reason why a capable, senior engineer would entertain a total comp under $200K these days in NYC - and I know many companies here that play with these numbers. I think the fact that these are labor cert numbers definitely skews the data downwards.

You know, whenever we get one of these salary articles on HN, there's always one or two people chiming in with vague anecdotes like "That seems really low! Most engineers I know are making $200K+!" or "Company X pays engineers $250K LOL" despite the fact that most responses (backed up by averages from anonymously-reported salaries like Glassdoor) seem to agree that $90-$140K is about average in SF and NYC. Not that I…

Yeah, it's tough. Especially since everyone inflates their earnings. But this is what I surmised after researching and interviewing at a dozen companies:

I compared my offers with friends and concluded a mid level (non-senior, not college hire) dev should make at least 135k for base salary and enough stocks and bonuses to surpass 200k per year. This is for Seattle as of spring 2014. However I followed my heart and accepted a slightly lower offer to join a start up.

Caveat: never believe any compensation numbers you read online or hear in person. People brag and exaggerate. Engineers lie to recruiters, recruiters lie to engineers, recruiters lie to other recruiters, and engineers lie to each other. I only believe numbers when I 1) see an offer letter, 2) see a pay stub, or 3) hear multiple people with the same job title tell me identical numbers.

Re: Tech salary insights from 1.2M foreign worker visas

#109

Post by nerfhammer »

alkonaut wrote: post #88
untog wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suspect that, particularly in the startup arena, time is more valuable than money. VCs are throwing cash at you, but they want you to launch yesterday.

Sure, and I realize good developers are hard to find, but unless you are looking for the 23year old "ninja" type developers who like doing all nighters, would you not need to care about work/life balance of employees too? Startups that need to launch yesterday I realize often have young employees without family, but these are large corps like Oracle/Yahoo/Google, these have to employ quite a lot of engineers in their…

It's not part of the culture. People sometimes quietly grouse about the lack of vacation time or the number of hours but no one is willing to publicly do anything about it for whatever cultural reason.

Re: Tech salary insights from 1.2M foreign worker visas

#110

Post by michaelochurch »

nostrademons wrote: post #87
michaelochurch wrote: post #12

We're not in a salary bubble. If anything, it's the opposite. I've analyzed the hell out of this "salary bubble" issue (or non-issue, because there is no such thing) at length. http://michaelochurch.wordpress.com/2014/05/24/whats-a-mid-c... http://michaelochurch.wordpress.com/2013/11/03/software-engi...

Your first article is based on faulty economics. When productivity increases are shared across an industry, nobody in the industry benefits. Instead, the benefits accrue to the customers and complements of the industry. There's a long historical precedent for that - productivity improvements in textile manufacturing destroyed the textile industry, productivity improvements in farming destroyed the small farmer, produ…

Your first article is based on faulty economics.

No. I'm not saying that software engineers should earn $700,000+ or that any reasonable economic model would have them at that level-- because never in the history of economics has one's labor being worth something to the employer been, alone, enough to justify floating it to that rate. I'm only saying that their value to the businesses that employ them is at least that high.

Applied to software, the reason engineers aren't capturing most of that value is because all engineers are getting more productive. The benefit is accruing instead to those who employ engineers and those who use & purchase software.

Then it seems like software engineers should unionize or professionalize. If there's no other way for them to get even a small fraction of their value to the business, then collective action is the best approach.

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