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Tech salary insights from 1.2M foreign worker visas

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Re: Tech salary insights from 1.2M foreign worker visas

#61

Post by endtime »

runako wrote: post #2

According to the data here, salaries for "Senior software engineer" in both SF and NYC are lagging rental inflation over the last 5 years. Does this jibe with reality? Is the data bad, or are engineers losing ground?

At least if you work for Google (as I do), comp growth seems to stay ahead of costs if your lifestyle doesn't change too much. But if you want to get married and have a kid (and live in a two-bedroom apartment) it starts feeling pretty expensive pretty fast. And housing costs are nuts in NYC (on top of the raw numbers, which might be comparable to SF at the low end, the market is obfuscated by slimy agents and a cheap apartment in NYC can be of shockingly poor quality).

Re: Tech salary insights from 1.2M foreign worker visas

#62

Post by seiji »

Domenic_S wrote: post #53
seiji wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My rent is going up by 10% next month at lease renewal time. My yearly review/raise increase was ~1%.

You have to consider housing cost as a % of your salary, not as a % of itself. For example, say your rent is $1000 and your salary is $100k. A 10% increase of rent is $100; a 1% salary increase is $1000. Net gain $900.

Excellent point except for the math mistake! A 10% rent increase in $1000/month rent make the new rent $1100/month, so your total additional cost is $1200/year, not $100/year!

Then, on top of all that, your salary increase is taxable. A $1,000 salary increase will only get you about an extra $600 per year. So, you're certainly not coming out ahead.

My actual numbers are a $300/month rent increase (which totals $3,600 more per year for the same space and the same services) combined with a less than $3,000 pre-tax raise for the year.

Also see any generic michaelochurch rant about how landlords try to capture all economic gains (and they require "proof of income" so they know how much you _could_ afford if you really had to).

Re: Tech salary insights from 1.2M foreign worker visas

#63

Post by FD3SA »

michaelochurch wrote: post #12

We're not in a salary bubble. If anything, it's the opposite. I've analyzed the hell out of this "salary bubble" issue (or non-issue, because there is no such thing) at length. http://michaelochurch.wordpress.com/2014/05/24/whats-a-mid-c... http://michaelochurch.wordpress.com/2013/11/03/software-engi...

This man speaks the truth. Michael has elucidated the the nature of employee/employer relations in tech with surgical precision. Highly recommended.

Particularly, this article [1] about the perceived status of engineers vs. managers solidified my suspicions about the status hierarchies inherent to the industry.

1. http://michaelochurch.wordpress.com/2014/07/13/how-the-other...

Re: Tech salary insights from 1.2M foreign worker visas

#64

Post by nostrademons »

simonsarris wrote: post #15

Why are tech salaries so low? Especially from these companies with large profit margins and huge revenue per employee numbers. It seems like engineers have captured almost nothing of the fruit of their labors.

Value capture is related to competition, not productivity. You capture value when there are few other alternatives in your space, and so your counterparties have to pay your price or go without.

If engineers aren't capturing much value, it's because they're fungible, and there are many other people on the market who can do the same thing. Engineers that do have very specialized skills - say, compiler design experts or people with deep expertise in transaction algorithms or high-ranking engineers on Google's search team - can frequently make into the millions in stock grants.

Re: Tech salary insights from 1.2M foreign worker visas

#65

Post by alkonaut »

untog wrote: post #21
thejdude wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's low to you? Wow. Just wow. Over here in Europe (or at least Germany) salaries are incredibly uniform (doesn't really matter if you suck or get as much done in a day as others in 1-2 weeks; if your bugs get constantly reopened or your code is rock-solid), and most people seem to get maybe 35-50k€ after graduation (diploma/master's degree).

Bear in mind that the US is severely out of whack in terms of work/life balance. It's one of the things I find most difficult about living here - when I first arrived I had 10 days vacation a year. I currently only have 15. And don't forget to factor in healthcare costs and the like. Money certainly isn't everything.

Yeah, that IS crazy. How come companies don't offer holdays as comp? Here (Sweden) having an extra week holiday (6 rather than 5 weeks) is a common comp.

Why aren't companies competing with that in the US? If I was offered $150k with 10-15 days holiday and 50hr work weeks (expected), I'd immediately start bargaining for 25-30 paid days off, and make sure I wouldn't be expected to work more than 40h/w. Is that uncommon in the US?

Or is it common to take unpaid days off, which you can afford given the high salaries?

Re: Tech salary insights from 1.2M foreign worker visas

#66

Post by serve_yay »

kin wrote: post #40
suyash wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I never clearly understood how many years of experience you need to become Sr. exactly, seems like everyone follows different rules.

It's all over the place. A college dropout who starts a start-up as CTO then fails within the year will apply as a senior. But, it's one of those things where I don't judge a book by its cover in either direction. After talking to the person in the right context there's a certain confidence and deep level of understanding that I expect from senior engineers and it never reflects their years of experience.

Yep, I agree with all of that. A lack of a cut-and-dried definition in terms of years or other objective measurements makes it hard to compile data, but that is exactly how I think of a senior developer.

Re: Tech salary insights from 1.2M foreign worker visas

#67

Post by djb_hackernews »

nostrademons wrote: post #64
simonsarris wrote: post #15

Why are tech salaries so low? Especially from these companies with large profit margins and huge revenue per employee numbers. It seems like engineers have captured almost nothing of the fruit of their labors.

Value capture is related to competition, not productivity. You capture value when there are few other alternatives in your space, and so your counterparties have to pay your price or go without. If engineers aren't capturing much value, it's because they're fungible, and there are many other people on the market who can do the same thing. Engineers that do have very specialized skills - say, compiler design experts o…

If engineers are fungible, and there are many other people on the market who can do the same thing, then why have a guest worker program like H1B?

Re: Tech salary insights from 1.2M foreign worker visas

#69

Post by refurb »

Iftheshoefits wrote: post #25
thejdude wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's low to you? Wow. Just wow. Over here in Europe (or at least Germany) salaries are incredibly uniform (doesn't really matter if you suck or get as much done in a day as others in 1-2 weeks; if your bugs get constantly reopened or your code is rock-solid), and most people seem to get maybe 35-50k€ after graduation (diploma/master's degree).

Here in the US we basically have little or no social safety net, and certainly few meaningful regulations and laws protecting labor. Our "wow just wow" salaries have less buying power than yours, because any difference in the margins is eaten up by having to use the additional salary for basic services you would be able to (mostly) take for granted as being government supplied (via taxation and other means).

Little to no safety net? What are we spending 50% of the federal budget on then?

Re: Tech salary insights from 1.2M foreign worker visas

#70

Post by ryanSrich »

wyuenho wrote: post #54
ryanSrich wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the U.S. a Software Development(dev, designer, etc.) job is a middle class role. What is a developer in china? Lower class? What is a middleman class job then? EDIT: Should probably define middleman class then...I guess I'd have to say, being able to purchase a house, pay off student debt in less than 10 years, afford to have children, buy a car, go to events and maintain a relatively comfortable lifestyle.

Software dev is definitely a middle class job in China, but in HK, it's only considered marginally better than clerical work. Labor in Greater China for any job other than the most exploitative ones (finance, sales, insurance, legal, upper management) are treated like dirt in general. Don't even get me started on the hours and the lack of benefits and incentives.

I find that odd. The jobs you mentioned (finance, sales, insurance, legal, upper management), with the exception being upper management, will most likely net you less than what a developer makes here in the U.S.

I should mention that those salaries are much more variable than developer salaries. It's not uncommon to find an insurance salesmen make less than $50k per year, but it also wouldn't be uncommon to find one that makes well over $150k.

It's really hard to see the future of the middle-class here in the U.S. I can't name five jobs that are a ticket to a comfortable lifestyle, whereas 20 years ago you could fire off 20 or so jobs.

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