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The Larch Environment

larchenvironment.com

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Re: The Larch Environment

#11

Post by lispm »

CoffeeDregs wrote: post #3

This is the 3rd or 4th time I've seen a proposal for visual programming environments (e.g. see http://cs.brown.edu/~spr/codebubbles/* , LightTable, this one, probably others) and I'm not sure why they don't take off. On the one hand, they seem incredibly useful and I really like Code Bubbles' approach to automatically pulling in relevant code ( http://cs.brown.edu/~spr/codebubbles/bubbles01.gif ). On the other hand,…

I don't think Lighttalble is a visual programming environment. Last I looked it just had some visual enhancements, but the code is plain old text in files.

Re: The Larch Environment

#12

Post by CoffeeDregs »

namuol wrote: post #9
CoffeeDregs wrote: post #3

This is the 3rd or 4th time I've seen a proposal for visual programming environments (e.g. see http://cs.brown.edu/~spr/codebubbles/* , LightTable, this one, probably others) and I'm not sure why they don't take off. On the one hand, they seem incredibly useful and I really like Code Bubbles' approach to automatically pulling in relevant code ( http://cs.brown.edu/~spr/codebubbles/bubbles01.gif ). On the other hand,…

Have you tried Unreal Engine 4's Blueprint [1]? It's probably the first visual programming that "made sense" to me. Its use is limited to UE4 games, of course, but I think its design would be suitable for more general use. [1] https://www.unrealengine.com/blog/blueprint-basics

Never seen it. Looks interesting, though very high level? I'll check out the youtube videos they mention: http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLZlv_N0_O1gaG5BW72It4c...

Re: The Larch Environment

#14

Post by namuol »

CoffeeDregs wrote: post #12
namuol wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you tried Unreal Engine 4's Blueprint [1]? It's probably the first visual programming that "made sense" to me. Its use is limited to UE4 games, of course, but I think its design would be suitable for more general use. [1] https://www.unrealengine.com/blog/blueprint-basics

Never seen it. Looks interesting, though very high level? I'll check out the youtube videos they mention: http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLZlv_N0_O1gaG5BW72It4c...

I wouldn't really call it "high level" -- it appears to me to interface pretty directly with underlying C++ classes and methods, and the actual flow of the code is exactly a sort of single-threaded flow of "ordinary" programming languages.

Re: The Larch Environment

#15

Post by mtrimpe »

SeoxyS wrote: post #5
mtrimpe wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think people are still underestimating the complexity and raw hard work involved in making these visuals scale. I also think it's inevitable in the long run, but developing them properly still has similar complexity as building IDE plugins except now having the IDE replaced with a 'language plus some form of IDE.' LightTable really seemed to be on the right track there, but from what I can tell it has fallen prey t…

Can you elaborate as to what you think happened to LightTable? What is this "curse of Lisp" that you speak of?

LightTable will continue on, but it seems to no longer be the main focus of Chris.

The curse I speak of is http://www.lambdassociates.org/blog/bipolar.htm Not that I'm implying Chris is bipolar at all but it's an apt description of the trap many great Lispers fall into.

Re: The Larch Environment

#16

Post by mtrimpe »

lispm wrote: post #11
CoffeeDregs wrote: post #3

This is the 3rd or 4th time I've seen a proposal for visual programming environments (e.g. see http://cs.brown.edu/~spr/codebubbles/* , LightTable, this one, probably others) and I'm not sure why they don't take off. On the one hand, they seem incredibly useful and I really like Code Bubbles' approach to automatically pulling in relevant code ( http://cs.brown.edu/~spr/codebubbles/bubbles01.gif ). On the other hand,…

I don't think Lighttalble is a visual programming environment. Last I looked it just had some visual enhancements, but the code is plain old text in files.

It's meant to be. It has the infrastructure to be. It just doesn't have the documentation and ecosystem to show how.

Re: The Larch Environment

#17

Post by noir_lord »

dvanduzer wrote: post #6
mtrimpe wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think people are still underestimating the complexity and raw hard work involved in making these visuals scale. I also think it's inevitable in the long run, but developing them properly still has similar complexity as building IDE plugins except now having the IDE replaced with a 'language plus some form of IDE.' LightTable really seemed to be on the right track there, but from what I can tell it has fallen prey t…

LightTable started from Clojure. Larch is based on Python. Neither is based on Mathematica. edit: What I mean is that iPython Notebooks are one of the few toolkits that are starting to take hold in academia in applications where Mathematica rules. Nobody in "serious number crunching academia" uses Clojure.

I'm not a mathematician but last year iPython saved my bacon big style when I suddenly needed to convert a dozen pages of dense math to an API with no notice.

I checked it all into iPython and then poked around playing with the equations to get a grasp of how they worked and what sane outputs would be, it was an incredibly powerful experience as it allowed me to visualise what was happening in a way I'd never been able to before, it also made me think there is a huge gap in the way math is taught in the UK, if I'd have had iPython when I was 15 I might not have needed to resit.

Re: The Larch Environment

#18

Post by callmeed »

Can someone explain to me the difference between "visual programming" tools like this and environments that have existed for years such as VisualBasic, MS Access, Flash, Dreamweaver, and XCode Storyboards? (Yes, I know many are mainly about UI but they all allow programming to some degree).

Are tools like Larch and LightTable aiming to be "visual programming done right" or is this a completely new (buzzword warning) paradigm in programming?

Re: The Larch Environment

#19

Post by seanmcdirmid »

mtrimpe wrote: post #15
SeoxyS wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you elaborate as to what you think happened to LightTable? What is this "curse of Lisp" that you speak of?

LightTable will continue on, but it seems to no longer be the main focus of Chris. The curse I speak of is http://www.lambdassociates.org/blog/bipolar.htm Not that I'm implying Chris is bipolar at all but it's an apt description of the trap many great Lispers fall into.

That is unfair. From what I understand, Chris and company had ambitious goals for lighttable that were not achievable because of the Clojure programming model, so rather than give up, they are taking the next step that they see as necessary.

Re: The Larch Environment

#20

Post by seanmcdirmid »

callmeed wrote: post #18

Can someone explain to me the difference between "visual programming" tools like this and environments that have existed for years such as VisualBasic, MS Access, Flash, Dreamweaver, and XCode Storyboards? (Yes, I know many are mainly about UI but they all allow programming to some degree). Are tools like Larch and LightTable aiming to be "visual programming done right" or is this a completely new ( buzzword warning…

Visual programming is a broad term that has been used to describe programming with visual aspects. Lets not even discuss visual programming languages, like Quartz Composer.
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