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Tramadol Is Not a Natural Product After All

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Re: Tramadol Is Not a Natural Product After All

#31

Post by lotsofmangos »

pron wrote: post #21

> Natural products chemistry is getting trickier all the time So now there's "natural" chemistry and "plain" chemistry? I thought molecules are molecules, and don't care how they came to be. What if humans were to artificially select some bacteria over a few generations to synthesize a certain molecule. Would that molecule now be "natural" or synthetic? In fact, it can be argued that many "natural" molecules are a re…

Well, there is natural products chemistry, which is anything that is produced directly from biology. It is a useful thing to keep track of as if something complex is being produced by a biological process you can hook into it for precursors to make other complex molecules more easily. You can also completely synthesize a natural product and it doesn't stop the status of the chemical. All the name means is that it is known to be existent as the output of a biological process.

Re: Tramadol Is Not a Natural Product After All

#32

Post by qnaal »

Igglyboo wrote: post #5

You could easily argue that everything that ever was or will be is natural, not really sure why the word is still used to describe products.

The idea, I think, is that humans have been sharing the planet with everything else for so long that anything especially dangerous that occurs "naturally" is likely to have been already tested- ie "artificial" drugs should be more unpredictable, and therefore potentially more dangerous, than whatever stuff some exotic culture has been fucking with for hundreds of generations (which is pretty much any interesting compound you can find "naturally").

Of course, unscrupulous-types will lean on whatever marketing stunt they feel will sell some short-term product, with little respect for the long-term dangers/benefits, so naturally words like "natural" and "organic" get abused.

Re: Tramadol Is Not a Natural Product After All

#33

Post by evincarofautumn »

localhost wrote: post #27
pron wrote: post #21

> Natural products chemistry is getting trickier all the time So now there's "natural" chemistry and "plain" chemistry? I thought molecules are molecules, and don't care how they came to be. What if humans were to artificially select some bacteria over a few generations to synthesize a certain molecule. Would that molecule now be "natural" or synthetic? In fact, it can be argued that many "natural" molecules are a re…

Natural products chemistry is a very old branch of synthetic organic chemistry. See wikipedia article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_product If you do a quick search for Natural Products in Google Scholar, and you'll see that this is a widely accepted term in organic chemistry. Now, what you're saying is something that generally irritates me to no end - differentiating between "synthetic" and "natural". An alk…

In fact I’d half-expect that synthetic products be generally safer, since you know exactly what you’re making and the extent to which it may be adulterated. If I want to eat everything that comes from the vanilla bean, I can buy extract. But if I want just vanillin, I can buy exactly that.

Re: Tramadol Is Not a Natural Product After All

#34

Post by Dylan16807 »

pron wrote: post #24
rjurney wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Still, there is something nice about a chemical appearing in nature. Gives evidence that it doesn't do batshit crazy things to life.

Have you heard of the very natural Oxygen Catastrophe[1] that wiped out much of the life on Earth? Some organisms began dumping a toxic chemical (oxygen) into the atmosphere in such large quantities that it practically killed off everyone except for those weird mutants that evolved to actually breathe that dangerous toxin synthesized by the killers! [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Oxygenation_Event

Yeah yeah it's not 100% but it's still reasonably strong evidence. If you find something in a plant that's eaten by many things then it's probably not very toxic.

Re: Tramadol Is Not a Natural Product After All

#35

Post by linker3000 »

linker3000 wrote: post #16

So, no organisation took samples of these trees/seeds to cultivate and study elsewhere and wondered why they weren't getting the same results!?

Guys, that was a genuine question so why the downvote?

I'm not a scientist and really can't understand why no-one wouldn't have done a controlled test or comparison in laboratory conditions.

Re: Tramadol Is Not a Natural Product After All

#36

Post by pron »

Dylan16807 wrote: post #34
pron wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you heard of the very natural Oxygen Catastrophe[1] that wiped out much of the life on Earth? Some organisms began dumping a toxic chemical (oxygen) into the atmosphere in such large quantities that it practically killed off everyone except for those weird mutants that evolved to actually breathe that dangerous toxin synthesized by the killers! [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Oxygenation_Event

Yeah yeah it's not 100% but it's still reasonably strong evidence. If you find something in a plant that's eaten by many things then it's probably not very toxic.

Maybe that's some evidence, but it's certainly not reasonably strong (in fact, it's very weak evidence). First, some of those "many things" would need to have a metabolism that's close to ours. Secondly, even if those unaffected organisms are similar to us, we would need to consume that molecule at similar concentrations. Most toxins have adverse effect only beyond a certain dosage. Something can be harmless (like cyanide) in it's "naturally occurring" concentrations, and positively lethal in higher doses. Besides, synthetic molecules are tested before they're approved for human consumption, and they are usually tested on animals with similar metabolism to us, and at the appropriate dose. So actually, FDA approval is a much, much, much stronger evidence for a drug's safety than it being extracted from "nature".

Re: Tramadol Is Not a Natural Product After All

#37

Post by pbhjpbhj »

80ProofPudding wrote: post #12
alexjeffrey wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

more importantly, the use of "natural" to describe a product with the implication that it being synthetic would be a bad thing is a fallacy.

Agreed. "Organic" is pretty widely abused, too - want to drink some crude oil? It's organic...

Crude oil is [primarily] organic if your context is [petro]chemistry. It's not an organic foodstuff however.

Shock, horror, words have contexts which cause them to mean different things.

Why is it that you don't wish people to know where their food has come from and how it has been produced. What is the problem with that for you? If you don't care that your children's food is saturated with growth hormones, fungicides, hormones and pesticides or that the farmers you buy from use so much Tramadol that the environment tests positively for it [as in the current case], fine, but why does it matter so much if other people want to know the conditions their food has been grown in? Say, by looking for organic food certifications. [There see I included "food" in case it confused you, words can be so hard, huh.]

There's no great logic to the insistence that words can't be used for multiple well defined meanings - yes even in associated fields like chemistry and food science/agriculture - and AFAICT there's no detriment to you in others choosing to care more about the rearing or growing conditions of their food (which you don't have to eat).

So what is your problem?

Re: Tramadol Is Not a Natural Product After All

#38

Post by wtallis »

linker3000 wrote: post #35
linker3000 wrote: post #16

So, no organisation took samples of these trees/seeds to cultivate and study elsewhere and wondered why they weren't getting the same results!?

Guys, that was a genuine question so why the downvote? I'm not a scientist and really can't understand why no-one wouldn't have done a controlled test or comparison in laboratory conditions.

Laboratory tests are expensive and time consuming and in this case completely unnecessary. Why would anyone do such an experiment?

Re: Tramadol Is Not a Natural Product After All

#39

Post by linker3000 »

wtallis wrote: post #38
linker3000 wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Guys, that was a genuine question so why the downvote? I'm not a scientist and really can't understand why no-one wouldn't have done a controlled test or comparison in laboratory conditions.

Laboratory tests are expensive and time consuming and in this case completely unnecessary. Why would anyone do such an experiment?

Good point - as I said, I am not a scientist, so that's what I wanted to know and your answer helps me understand.

In my mind, it seems like declaring that a plant is growing gold, without testing the ground (or doing a lab test), and later finding out that its roots are picking up the gold from a seam near the surface.

Re: Tramadol Is Not a Natural Product After All

#40

Post by jrapdx3 »

duncanawoods wrote: post #26
rjurney wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think its stupid they did that, but then I do remember widespread use of "Tromol" in Moscow. People would take it in high doses and veg out for days at a time.

Is this is the same Tramadol that is incredibly addictive and kills people if they taper off too quickly? Why wouldn't you want some hoops for this? I was prescribed it after I broke a leg in judo. I was shocked when I looked it up and found forums rife with addicts in great distress.

Tramadol, like several other opioid drugs, e.g., hydrocodone and oxycodone, has been increasingly associated with dependence in recent years, so have been rescheduled to a more highly controlled classification by the DEA/FDA.

This is not a new phenomenon. Many opioids, including heroin, when introduced where thought to be "less addicting" than older opium-derived drugs. Of course, this turned out to be mistaken and now it's being played out with several "less addictive" opioids in common use.

I certainly wouldn't regard tramadol as innocuous, besides abuse and dependence, it can also have serious interactions with other medications, particularly serotonin overload which can be deadly.

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