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Tramadol Is Not a Natural Product After All

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Re: Tramadol Is Not a Natural Product After All

#21

Post by pron »

> Natural products chemistry is getting trickier all the time

So now there's "natural" chemistry and "plain" chemistry? I thought molecules are molecules, and don't care how they came to be. What if humans were to artificially select some bacteria over a few generations to synthesize a certain molecule. Would that molecule now be "natural" or synthetic? In fact, it can be argued that many "natural" molecules are a result of that exact process, because their synthesizing organism has evolved to survive human effects.

EDIT: as pointed out by localhost, natural products chemistry is actually a well defined -- and widely accepted -- term.

Re: Tramadol Is Not a Natural Product After All

#22

Post by dllthomas »

Igglyboo wrote: post #11
sp332 wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hydrogen, oxygen, and nitrogen are natural. But this arrangement of the atoms does not occur unless humans want it to. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tramadol

Yes that's what I'm saying, "unless humans want it to" still qualifies as natural. Humans are natural and a part of nature and so anything they create is as well. If a beehive or beaver dam is considered natural then so is the empire state building, all three were created by animals native to this planet.

Sure, you can redefine the word in a way that makes it meaningless. Or you can use it the way the rest of the world does - where "natural" means "not the result of human intervention". By that definition, it's obvious why a beehive and beaver dam are "natural" and the Empire State Building is not. There is a degree to which this focus is arbitrary, but given that we are humans, it's sometimes a worthwhile focus to have. That in turn, of course, does not mean it's correct to care about it everywhere we seem to.

Re: Tramadol Is Not a Natural Product After All

#23

Post by pyre »

Igglyboo wrote: post #11
sp332 wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hydrogen, oxygen, and nitrogen are natural. But this arrangement of the atoms does not occur unless humans want it to. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tramadol

Yes that's what I'm saying, "unless humans want it to" still qualifies as natural. Humans are natural and a part of nature and so anything they create is as well. If a beehive or beaver dam is considered natural then so is the empire state building, all three were created by animals native to this planet.

Doesn't that devalue the term if everything ever is 'natural' making it impossible for anything to be unnatural?

Re: Tramadol Is Not a Natural Product After All

#24

Post by pron »

rjurney wrote: post #14
alexjeffrey wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

more importantly, the use of "natural" to describe a product with the implication that it being synthetic would be a bad thing is a fallacy.

Still, there is something nice about a chemical appearing in nature. Gives evidence that it doesn't do batshit crazy things to life.

Have you heard of the very natural Oxygen Catastrophe[1] that wiped out much of the life on Earth? Some organisms began dumping a toxic chemical (oxygen) into the atmosphere in such large quantities that it practically killed off everyone except for those weird mutants that evolved to actually breathe that dangerous toxin synthesized by the killers!

[1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Oxygenation_Event

Re: Tramadol Is Not a Natural Product After All

#26

Post by duncanawoods »

rjurney wrote: post #15
telecuda wrote: post #13

Tramadol recently became more regulated as a controlled substance and now requires patients to jump through more hoops (pain management visits, drug tests, etc.) to obtain. Source: Family member on Tramadol and http://www.businessinsurance.com/article/20140818/NEWS08/140...

I think its stupid they did that, but then I do remember widespread use of "Tromol" in Moscow. People would take it in high doses and veg out for days at a time.

Is this is the same Tramadol that is incredibly addictive and kills people if they taper off too quickly? Why wouldn't you want some hoops for this?

I was prescribed it after I broke a leg in judo. I was shocked when I looked it up and found forums rife with addicts in great distress.

Re: Tramadol Is Not a Natural Product After All

#27

Post by localhost »

pron wrote: post #21

> Natural products chemistry is getting trickier all the time So now there's "natural" chemistry and "plain" chemistry? I thought molecules are molecules, and don't care how they came to be. What if humans were to artificially select some bacteria over a few generations to synthesize a certain molecule. Would that molecule now be "natural" or synthetic? In fact, it can be argued that many "natural" molecules are a re…

Natural products chemistry is a very old branch of synthetic organic chemistry. See wikipedia article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_product

If you do a quick search for Natural Products in Google Scholar, and you'll see that this is a widely accepted term in organic chemistry.

Now, what you're saying is something that generally irritates me to no end - differentiating between "synthetic" and "natural". An alkene is an alkene, regardless of whether it was synthesized by a natural process or in a reactor.

Re: Tramadol Is Not a Natural Product After All

#28

Post by wtallis »

linker3000 wrote: post #16

So, no organisation took samples of these trees/seeds to cultivate and study elsewhere and wondered why they weren't getting the same results!?

Cultivating the plants in a lab to study would have been a lot more difficult than what was actually done in this attempt to replicate the results, which was to just take samples from more than one region.

Re: Tramadol Is Not a Natural Product After All

#29

Post by pron »

localhost wrote: post #27
pron wrote: post #21

> Natural products chemistry is getting trickier all the time So now there's "natural" chemistry and "plain" chemistry? I thought molecules are molecules, and don't care how they came to be. What if humans were to artificially select some bacteria over a few generations to synthesize a certain molecule. Would that molecule now be "natural" or synthetic? In fact, it can be argued that many "natural" molecules are a re…

Natural products chemistry is a very old branch of synthetic organic chemistry. See wikipedia article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_product If you do a quick search for Natural Products in Google Scholar, and you'll see that this is a widely accepted term in organic chemistry. Now, what you're saying is something that generally irritates me to no end - differentiating between "synthetic" and "natural". An alk…

Oh. I stand corrected.

Re: Tramadol Is Not a Natural Product After All

#30

Post by paul »

pron wrote: post #21

> Natural products chemistry is getting trickier all the time So now there's "natural" chemistry and "plain" chemistry? I thought molecules are molecules, and don't care how they came to be. What if humans were to artificially select some bacteria over a few generations to synthesize a certain molecule. Would that molecule now be "natural" or synthetic? In fact, it can be argued that many "natural" molecules are a re…

Yes. "Natural" flavoring often means something manufactured by a genetically engineered bacteria.
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