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Feds Threatened to Fine Yahoo $250K Daily for Not Complying with NSA's PRISM

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Re: Feds Threatened to Fine Yahoo $250K Daily for Not Complying with NSA's PRISM

#231

Post by beedogs »

bruceboughton wrote: post #225
beedogs wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I left. And the country I moved to has lurched even further into the realm of "authoritarian police state" than the US. I'm of the opinion that all Western governments are headed down this path, inevitably. It's going to take a lot of violence and bloodshed (read: murdering the rich in their sleep) to "fix" this.

>> murdering the rich in their sleep Well, you're a pleasant fellow.

I'm a realistic person. That's what it usually takes to fix these situations.

Pick up a history book.

Re: Feds Threatened to Fine Yahoo $250K Daily for Not Complying with NSA's PRISM

#232

Post by [deleted] »

bruceboughton wrote: post #225
beedogs wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I left. And the country I moved to has lurched even further into the realm of "authoritarian police state" than the US. I'm of the opinion that all Western governments are headed down this path, inevitably. It's going to take a lot of violence and bloodshed (read: murdering the rich in their sleep) to "fix" this.

>> murdering the rich in their sleep Well, you're a pleasant fellow.

[deleted]

Re: Feds Threatened to Fine Yahoo $250K Daily for Not Complying with NSA's PRISM

#233

Post by dredmorbius »

tptacek wrote: post #220
dredmorbius wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The trades having happened doesn't mean that the rest of the Government's case was relevant. Were there other trades outside this period?

Did you see what percentage of his holdings those were?

Actually, no, and that didn't seem to be apparent in the materials posted. Do you feel like telling me or should I start playing 20 questions or consulting my talismans?

Re: Feds Threatened to Fine Yahoo $250K Daily for Not Complying with NSA's PRISM

#234

Post by tptacek »

dredmorbius wrote: post #233
tptacek wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you see what percentage of his holdings those were?

Actually, no, and that didn't seem to be apparent in the materials posted. Do you feel like telling me or should I start playing 20 questions or consulting my talismans?

Actually doing research to back your arguments up isn't a game of 20 questions. Facts aren't talismans.

Re: Feds Threatened to Fine Yahoo $250K Daily for Not Complying with NSA's PRISM

#235

Post by [deleted] »

tripzilch wrote: post #227
dang wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(This comment was killed by user flags. I'm unkilling it to reply.) That's a cheap shot. As you know, personal attacks are not welcome on Hacker News. You usually do a good job of forcefully arguing your positions while remaining civil. We need you to keep doing that. Please set a right example, not a wrong one. This stuff matters. It weakens your arguments when you stoop to the lower levels, anyway.

I, for one, can completely understand the feelings of frustration behind the statement. Also note how forcefully arguing positions managed to derail the entire thread above into unnecessary bickering about what basically amounts to a matter of nuance (as happens so often in discussions about NSA scandals, hence the frustrations), while this cheap shot, in fact, did not. Quality of discussion, you be the judge. I get…

[deleted]

Re: Feds Threatened to Fine Yahoo $250K Daily for Not Complying with NSA's PRISM

#236

Post by tptacek »

jcc80 wrote: post #230
tptacek wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The indictment contains stipulated facts, which I took pains to pull out. You've ignored that, and instead chosen to beat up a straw man: the idea that I give credence to everything in the indictment, and that my argument depends on the reader believing the prosecutors.

"You've ignored that, and instead chosen to beat up a straw man: the idea that I give credence to everything in the indictment..." They may have been confused by you writing, "Here's the indictment. It's quite straightforward." Either way, point is this is yet another NSA thread derailed by a smaller issue (insider trading vs. 4th amendment, domestic spying, etc). It's too bad people choose to engage and let it happe…

I agree that Nacchio derailed the thread, but look at the timestamps: there was a sprawling and irrelevant Nacchio thread here before I got here.

Re: Feds Threatened to Fine Yahoo $250K Daily for Not Complying with NSA's PRISM

#237

Post by dang »

tripzilch wrote: post #227
dang wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(This comment was killed by user flags. I'm unkilling it to reply.) That's a cheap shot. As you know, personal attacks are not welcome on Hacker News. You usually do a good job of forcefully arguing your positions while remaining civil. We need you to keep doing that. Please set a right example, not a wrong one. This stuff matters. It weakens your arguments when you stoop to the lower levels, anyway.

I, for one, can completely understand the feelings of frustration behind the statement. Also note how forcefully arguing positions managed to derail the entire thread above into unnecessary bickering about what basically amounts to a matter of nuance (as happens so often in discussions about NSA scandals, hence the frustrations), while this cheap shot, in fact, did not. Quality of discussion, you be the judge. I get…

Feelings of frustration are often understandable, but the point is that if we are to have a high-quality discourse here, we can't let them determine the comments we post. There are some contexts in which pugilism and intellect go together just fine, but experience has shown that Hacker News is not one of them.

It's particularly harmful when a good writer or established user goes there, because then everybody else does and it's degenerate internet goo for the lot of us.

The old line about heat vs. light comes to mind. We can't have both. Hacker News is about clearing a place for thoughtful conversation, or at least trying to. This is not a subject matter thing, it's a quality thing.

Re: Feds Threatened to Fine Yahoo $250K Daily for Not Complying with NSA's PRISM

#238

Post by xnull2guest »

jcc80 wrote: post #230
tptacek wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The indictment contains stipulated facts, which I took pains to pull out. You've ignored that, and instead chosen to beat up a straw man: the idea that I give credence to everything in the indictment, and that my argument depends on the reader believing the prosecutors.

"You've ignored that, and instead chosen to beat up a straw man: the idea that I give credence to everything in the indictment..." They may have been confused by you writing, "Here's the indictment. It's quite straightforward." Either way, point is this is yet another NSA thread derailed by a smaller issue (insider trading vs. 4th amendment, domestic spying, etc). It's too bad people choose to engage and let it happe…

http://youtu.be/3jQoAYRKqhg?t=14m17s

I'm not saying that this thread or even HN is a victim of this.

I do want to use this opportunity to contribute that there are NSA programs designed to derail conversations.

Re: Feds Threatened to Fine Yahoo $250K Daily for Not Complying with NSA's PRISM

#239

Post by jacquesm »

tptacek wrote: post #213
jacquesm wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're only going after Al Capone because you can't get him for other crimes and other tax evaders go free that's still selective enforcement.

Whether something is evil "selective enforcement" or good "prosecutorial discretion" really does seem to depend on the optics of the case, doesn't it?

Definitely, there is no such thing as an objective truth when it comes to things such as these. But it is possible to reduce the chances of abuse of selective enforcement and prosecutorial discretion by passing laws that are as transparent as possible and by having little to no career effects as a result of such selective enforcement if and when they take place.

Otherwise you make a law for Al Capone and you end up prosecuting Aaron Swartz.

Re: Feds Threatened to Fine Yahoo $250K Daily for Not Complying with NSA's PRISM

#240

Post by xnull2guest »

xnull2guest wrote: post #238
jcc80 wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"You've ignored that, and instead chosen to beat up a straw man: the idea that I give credence to everything in the indictment..." They may have been confused by you writing, "Here's the indictment. It's quite straightforward." Either way, point is this is yet another NSA thread derailed by a smaller issue (insider trading vs. 4th amendment, domestic spying, etc). It's too bad people choose to engage and let it happe…

http://youtu.be/3jQoAYRKqhg?t=14m17s I'm not saying that this thread or even HN is a victim of this. I do want to use this opportunity to contribute that there are NSA programs designed to derail conversations.

Perhaps the person downvoting this could explain why it wasn't relevant to the branch of the conversation.
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