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Feds Threatened to Fine Yahoo $250K Daily for Not Complying with NSA's PRISM

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Re: Feds Threatened to Fine Yahoo $250K Daily for Not Complying with NSA's PRISM

#221
post #177
post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OK, fair enough. But, uh, he is guilty of insider trading right?

Yes he was on 19 counts. But to the OP's point he is also notable for this: > Joseph P. Nacchio was the only head of a communications company to demand a court order, or approval under the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, in order to turn over communications records to the NSA. His conviction doesn't disprove he lost government contracts for fighting back against the NSA, only that he attempted to financially b…

I do not think the complaint is plausible. I think that even if you stipulate that it is, the case is strong on its own merits. There's a difference between stipulating a point and conceding it.

Re: Feds Threatened to Fine Yahoo $250K Daily for Not Complying with NSA's PRISM

#222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As has been noted below: an indictment is not a legal finding of fact. It's the worst possible case that the prosecution can make against the defense (in a criminal case). In a civil case, this would be the circumstance of the opening briefs of either side. An indictment will read very clearly, because that's how it's written . What it fails to do is take into account any exculpatory evidence or claims . This isn't p…

Well, it's a tough job defending the "agencies" in every circumstance, but someone has to do it.

(This comment was killed by user flags. I'm unkilling it to reply.)

That's a cheap shot. As you know, personal attacks are not welcome on Hacker News.

You usually do a good job of forcefully arguing your positions while remaining civil. We need you to keep doing that. Please set a right example, not a wrong one. This stuff matters.

It weakens your arguments when you stoop to the lower levels, anyway.

Re: Feds Threatened to Fine Yahoo $250K Daily for Not Complying with NSA's PRISM

#223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unless I am missing something, your premise is that Nacchio is a cheat, and therefore we should discount anything he says about the motives behind the government's prosecution of him. Is that correct? Need I remind you that the government are confirmed cheats and liars here, as well? The judge who tried and sentenced him? Resigned in disgrace afterwards from some sort of sex scandal. See how Ad Homs work? As for peop…

No! That is not my premise! I do not care what Nacchio has to say. You can find anything he says compelling and that is fine. I am saying that independent of anything Nacchio has to say, he does not appear to have been convicted on trumped-up charges. But that belief is extremely common; even Jason Kottke featured it on his popular blog.

>No! That is not my premise!

Good, and thanks for clearing it up.

>I am saying that independent of anything Nacchio has to say, he does not appear to have been convicted on trumped-up charges. But that belief is extremely common; even Jason Kottke featured it on his popular blog.

That's fine, but I don't think it makes much difference if the charges were trumped up or legit. When you've got the NSA, you don't always need to trump up charges. Just be patient, catch your mark breaking some law. Maybe give the mark a little nudge if needed. One of Nacchio's complaints was that he wasn't allowed to disclose certain exculpatory facts in public.

Re: Feds Threatened to Fine Yahoo $250K Daily for Not Complying with NSA's PRISM

#224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They'd lock up the execs for "embezzlement". I could tell you a story about this squeaky clean guy I know who's in prison for fraud, because he refused to comply with a secret court order... but I can't, because I don't want to join him. I could tell you another story about a barrister I know who had his career destroyed and his wife "suicided" for refusing to do certain things around a trial in the UK - but again, I…

You seem to have an inside perspective. Care to share more?

Not really, sorry. I mean, yes, desperately, but I fear repercussions for the individuals concerned, myself, their families, etc.

Suffice to say that of what you read in the press about the misdoings of important individual X should be taken with a heaping of salt and a cynical eye.

We live in the age of assassination without murder.

Re: Feds Threatened to Fine Yahoo $250K Daily for Not Complying with NSA's PRISM

#225

I wish there was a way to post anon here. I create a new id every now and then and post but no one sees the posting because it's new... I wish more people would be outraged by where the u.s. Is going and just leave. If you're educated, have desirable skills, you can just come to Europe. If you think you can change what's happening in the u.s. I do not agree with you. You will lose to the political class. They have 10…

I left. And the country I moved to has lurched even further into the realm of "authoritarian police state" than the US. I'm of the opinion that all Western governments are headed down this path, inevitably. It's going to take a lot of violence and bloodshed (read: murdering the rich in their sleep) to "fix" this.

>> murdering the rich in their sleep

Well, you're a pleasant fellow.

Re: Feds Threatened to Fine Yahoo $250K Daily for Not Complying with NSA's PRISM

#226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure. Let's make sure only the government has guns. That always works out well, nothing bad ever happened with that. Our democratic government has never used force illegally, violated our rights, and has never exceeded its Constitutional authority. That's why there are so many popular posts on HN lauding the US government for its benevolence. Let me ask you, specifically, why would you want to disarm me? Take away gu…

Lots of brave down voters with no logical discourse to offer today.

Perhaps because there are plenty of countries whose populations aren't armed, yet still capable of hosting a BBQ?

Re: Feds Threatened to Fine Yahoo $250K Daily for Not Complying with NSA's PRISM

#227
post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, it's a tough job defending the "agencies" in every circumstance, but someone has to do it.

(This comment was killed by user flags. I'm unkilling it to reply.) That's a cheap shot. As you know, personal attacks are not welcome on Hacker News. You usually do a good job of forcefully arguing your positions while remaining civil. We need you to keep doing that. Please set a right example, not a wrong one. This stuff matters. It weakens your arguments when you stoop to the lower levels, anyway.

I, for one, can completely understand the feelings of frustration behind the statement. Also note how forcefully arguing positions managed to derail the entire thread above into unnecessary bickering about what basically amounts to a matter of nuance (as happens so often in discussions about NSA scandals, hence the frustrations), while this cheap shot, in fact, did not. Quality of discussion, you be the judge.

I get your point about remaining civil (though I disagree that stooping to lower levels always weakens one's arguments), and I commend you for taking such a proactive role in this, I really do. Sometimes though, discourse here has different problems than strictly has to do with civility, when I open a thread about yet another NSA scandal and I see tptacek pushing the very same hot button again and again, derailing all top discussion into something that has little if anything to do with the topic. Yes sure he is often technically correct, but he's a smart guy (really smart, and that is when I'd expect better, wouldn't you?), knowing very well that what and how he writes makes people think he's defending the NSA somehow. Somebody will engage, and the by now very familiar pattern unrolls in the same way it always does, taking up parts of the thread-space that could've been useful and interesting discussion. He could also make the same statement in a much less inflammatory way. Or simply not at all, because in this particular case he was pre-empting a sentiment that nobody actually claimed.

In short, I don't think forcefully arguing their positions would have addressed the frustrations that gave cause to coldtea's "cheap shot" (I can't really speak for him of course), but rather the opposite.

Re: Feds Threatened to Fine Yahoo $250K Daily for Not Complying with NSA's PRISM

#228

Weren't these requests, which Yahoo objected to, intended to stay secret, by the wishes of the government? Consider if Yahoo refused to honor the requests, and began accruing the fines. Presumably, if they didn't pay the huge bill for their fines, what would happen? Surely, $250k/day would rack up fast... As I see it, eventually Yahoo would rack up such a bill that they couldn't afford it, and any collection of the f…

NATO should be destroyed with furious anger and righteous punishment.

Re: Feds Threatened to Fine Yahoo $250K Daily for Not Complying with NSA's PRISM

#230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You of all people should know better than to give any credence to indictments . You know what purpose they serve, right?

The indictment contains stipulated facts, which I took pains to pull out. You've ignored that, and instead chosen to beat up a straw man: the idea that I give credence to everything in the indictment, and that my argument depends on the reader believing the prosecutors.

"You've ignored that, and instead chosen to beat up a straw man: the idea that I give credence to everything in the indictment..."

They may have been confused by you writing, "Here's the indictment. It's quite straightforward." Either way, point is this is yet another NSA thread derailed by a smaller issue (insider trading vs. 4th amendment, domestic spying, etc). It's too bad people choose to engage and let it happen over and over.

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