Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Feds Threatened to Fine Yahoo $250K Daily for Not Complying with NSA's PRISM

wired.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

171–180 of 246 posts

Re: Feds Threatened to Fine Yahoo $250K Daily for Not Complying with NSA's PRISM

#171

Post by jdimov »

zimpenfish wrote: post #166
jdimov wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Frankly, I am appalled by the LACK of discussion of these topics on this hacker site. Why is there a taboo on politics? Why is it out of reach? 400 innocent children were killed indiscriminately in the span of 6 weeks in Gaza. But your vim configuration is more worthy of discussion here? Idk...

I suspect it's minimised because a) politics is very much a personal thing which b) tends to explode very quickly into name-calling and sniping and c) there's already about 8 jillion political discussion places on the intertents.

Fuck those 8 jillion blabbing places. WE are the only ones who can do something about it! WE, the hackers, the creators of our reality, the readers of this site. Those discussions belong HERE.

Re: Feds Threatened to Fine Yahoo $250K Daily for Not Complying with NSA's PRISM

#172

Post by dmix »

eli wrote: post #163
dredmorbius wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As has been noted below: an indictment is not a legal finding of fact. It's the worst possible case that the prosecution can make against the defense (in a criminal case). In a civil case, this would be the circumstance of the opening briefs of either side. An indictment will read very clearly, because that's how it's written . What it fails to do is take into account any exculpatory evidence or claims . This isn't p…

But wasn't he found guilty?

Presenting an indictment as fact is dangerous and highly questionable, whether or not the person got convicted.

That doesn't mean the indictment is accurate, it is written at a point where it hasn't been scrutinized by the courts. They are pretty much always written as the very extreme position of what could have happened. They always present the offender as having clear intentions of breaking the law, when reality is much more complex. For example, they always throw in extra charges. In this case:

> Nacchio was convicted in 2007 of 19 counts of insider trading and acquitted on 23 counts. [1]

Prosecutors have to prove it's plausible the guy did it, they don't have an obligation to present an accurate or realistic scenarios in their original pre-trial arguments in order to win. Even the judgement by the courts can be inaccurate, this is why appeals courts are super important:

> The 10th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals ruled Friday that the trial judge overstated the amount of Nacchio's alleged financial gain.

[1] http://abcnews.go.com/Business/story?id=8226761

Re: Feds Threatened to Fine Yahoo $250K Daily for Not Complying with NSA's PRISM

#173

Post by krapp »

jdimov wrote: post #164
idlewords wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Decent jet engines! Seriously, you typed this statement and thought what? "Now we'll finally have a fruitful discussion on the hacker site"?

Frankly, I am appalled by the LACK of discussion of these topics on this hacker site. Why is there a taboo on politics? Why is it out of reach? 400 innocent children were killed indiscriminately in the span of 6 weeks in Gaza. But your vim configuration is more worthy of discussion here? Idk...

People don't approach politics rationally.

For instance: >400 innocent children were killed indiscriminately in the span of 6 weeks in Gaza

The bias implicit in this suggests that you consider that either someone agrees with your point of view, or else they support the slaughter of innocent children. Which further suggests that what you're looking for is not discussion, but pro-Palestinian advocacy, as there is no room for discussion in your framing. And of course it's impossible for me to suggest the nature of your bias without expressing my own bias.

Which is fine, if that's what you want there are other forums for such things, but that's not what most people come to Hacker News for. One-sided political discussions are not very interesting, and never fruitful.

Re: Feds Threatened to Fine Yahoo $250K Daily for Not Complying with NSA's PRISM

#174

Post by happyscrappy »

idlewords wrote: post #37
comrade1 wrote: post #27

I wish there was a way to post anon here. I create a new id every now and then and post but no one sees the posting because it's new... I wish more people would be outraged by where the u.s. Is going and just leave. If you're educated, have desirable skills, you can just come to Europe. If you think you can change what's happening in the u.s. I do not agree with you. You will lose to the political class. They have 10…

Some of us are outraged by where the U.S. is going but stay to try to fix it. Otherwise you get adverse selection effects, like when all the non-crazies left New Hampshire. Plus have you ever had a European burrito? It's not pretty.

> like when all the non-crazies left New Hampshire

Huh?

Re: Feds Threatened to Fine Yahoo $250K Daily for Not Complying with NSA's PRISM

#175

Post by eli »

dmix wrote: post #172
eli wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But wasn't he found guilty?

Presenting an indictment as fact is dangerous and highly questionable, whether or not the person got convicted. That doesn't mean the indictment is accurate, it is written at a point where it hasn't been scrutinized by the courts. They are pretty much always written as the very extreme position of what could have happened. They always present the offender as having clear intentions of breaking the law, when reality i…

OK, fair enough. But, uh, he is guilty of insider trading right?

Re: Feds Threatened to Fine Yahoo $250K Daily for Not Complying with NSA's PRISM

#176

Post by pkinsky »

idlewords wrote: post #96
notastartup wrote: post #33

This is like being shaken down by the Mafia. You are not gonna do what we like? It's gonna cost ya. Next we are gonna break Marissa's legs.

That's how courts enforce court orders. You can get philosophical and say that the state is just like the mafia, man, except legal. But surely you understand the need for some mechanism to force compliance from people who just say "I don't want to do that" to a court ruling.

Note that this argument applies equally well to enforcing the edicts of England's Star Chamber.

Re: Feds Threatened to Fine Yahoo $250K Daily for Not Complying with NSA's PRISM

#177

Post by dmix »

eli wrote: post #175
dmix wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Presenting an indictment as fact is dangerous and highly questionable, whether or not the person got convicted. That doesn't mean the indictment is accurate, it is written at a point where it hasn't been scrutinized by the courts. They are pretty much always written as the very extreme position of what could have happened. They always present the offender as having clear intentions of breaking the law, when reality i…

OK, fair enough. But, uh, he is guilty of insider trading right?

Yes he was on 19 counts. But to the OP's point he is also notable for this:

> Joseph P. Nacchio was the only head of a communications company to demand a court order, or approval under the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, in order to turn over communications records to the NSA.

His conviction doesn't disprove he lost government contracts for fighting back against the NSA, only that he attempted to financially benefit from his unique knowledge of it. As even tptacek admits, it's a very plausible complaint. And one now effectively derailed.

Re: Feds Threatened to Fine Yahoo $250K Daily for Not Complying with NSA's PRISM

#178

Post by fnordfnordfnord »

eli wrote: post #175
dmix wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Presenting an indictment as fact is dangerous and highly questionable, whether or not the person got convicted. That doesn't mean the indictment is accurate, it is written at a point where it hasn't been scrutinized by the courts. They are pretty much always written as the very extreme position of what could have happened. They always present the offender as having clear intentions of breaking the law, when reality i…

OK, fair enough. But, uh, he is guilty of insider trading right?

That was the court's finding.

Re: Feds Threatened to Fine Yahoo $250K Daily for Not Complying with NSA's PRISM

#179

Post by idlewords »

pkinsky wrote: post #176
idlewords wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's how courts enforce court orders. You can get philosophical and say that the state is just like the mafia, man, except legal. But surely you understand the need for some mechanism to force compliance from people who just say "I don't want to do that" to a court ruling.

Note that this argument applies equally well to enforcing the edicts of England's Star Chamber.

Yes. It has no moral content; it's the mechanism by which the state works.

Re: Feds Threatened to Fine Yahoo $250K Daily for Not Complying with NSA's PRISM

#180

Post by Kalium »

yamayb wrote: post #139
DominikR wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do not like how Israel is always portrayed as some thug that is pulling the strings. Israel is a small satellite state of the US in a very important region, therefore Israel is very important to the US in realizing its goals to dominate this region. Also, the comparison with Nazi Germany is wrong. The US does not have any racial ideology, it wants to dominate economically and militarily, not destroy if it doesn't h…

I don't think he means that Israel is pulling the strings -- but that is debatable (see AIPAC). I think what he is saying is that the fascist governments and capabilities of Israel and the U.S. would have been envied by Nazi germany. Maybe he has a point. Just consider the recent round of violence (to put it lightly, some might call it ethnic cleansing) in gaza. Now consider the success of dehumanizing the palestinia…

Oh come on. Do you seriously believe that a modern military attempting genocide or ethnic cleansing would stop after four digits of death toll against a population of millions? That's hardly the limit of their abilities. That would be the least competent genocide in history.

There are a lot of criticisms to be leveled against Israel, but accusing them of genocide doesn't pass the sniff test. That's more an ideological framing and comment on the person leveling said criticisms than it is a reflection of reality.

The Nazis would be jealous of any modern state's computing power, military might, and intelligence capabilities. But so would literally any other empire in history. I mean, how jealous of modern air power would Napoleon be?

Post reply on HN