The Risk in Sending Your Startup’s Technology Offshore • Hacker News Board

Re: The Risk in Sending Your Startup’s Technology Offshore

#31

Post by Pxtl » Wed, Sep 10, 2014, 3:35 PM UTC

jacquesm wrote: post #28

Pxtl wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm always confused why companies don't invest more in better teleconferencing tech. I mean, for a small fraction of the money being saved with offshore work you could have a meeting room full of screens and networked whiteboards and wearable high-quality mics and wall-mounted cameras and crystal-clear VOIP and whatnot, to put you "in the room" with your counterparts. None of this technology is science fiction. But y…

> But yeah, the inability to extract the words "I don't understand" or "I don't know" from foreign workers drives me utterly batty. That's a cultural thing, and you're doing it wrong if you are trying to extract admissions out of people. That's the totally counter-productive approach. I understand that from a 'western' background admitting to failure, a lack of knowledge or even downright incompetence does not have t…

I know, it's just hard. I hate dealing with an open loop - I have no feedback whether I'm explaining too much or too little.

Re: The Risk in Sending Your Startup’s Technology Offshore

#32

Post by crdb » Wed, Sep 10, 2014, 3:35 PM UTC

dave_sullivan wrote: post #11

Non-technical founder is a weird catch all. You never really hear about non technical founders in other industries, right? You don't start a construction company and say "Well, I don't know anything about construction but I can draw pictures of buildings, so I'll just hire someone that does (barring for a moment that I lack the knowledge about the profession that would allow me to judge talent in the first place)." T…

Regardless of industry, a non-technical founder can still offer many things, including fundraising (whether via connections or hustle), sales, admin, the boring research like talking to customers, dealing with accounting, legal... (I've also personally found that to have one person focused on figuring out what problems are worth solving, and the other on solving them, works very well, but many engineers are also good at and enjoy figuring out what problems to solve).

It's not just about relative ability, it's a question of motivation - few engineers truly enjoy putting on their tie to pitch 100 potential investors in a row, or convincing the first few clients to pony up for the product, with 95% of cases ending in a painful rejection.

In fact, if a non-technical founder (I'm looking at you MBAs "interested in entrepreneurship") wants to increase his chances with the better engineers, he can always do so by closing a sale and presenting the evidence to the technical people he is trying to hire for the job. "I've gotten a written commitment to $100,000 if we build this relatively simple piece of software, and I have another four watching, we won't need seed funding" is a considerably more attractive proposition than "hey, please build this for free and according to this PowerPoint from my Tech Ventures class we'll own a billion dollar market next year".

Re: The Risk in Sending Your Startup’s Technology Offshore

#33

Post by gmarx » Wed, Sep 10, 2014, 3:38 PM UTC

dave_sullivan wrote: post #11

Non-technical founder is a weird catch all. You never really hear about non technical founders in other industries, right? You don't start a construction company and say "Well, I don't know anything about construction but I can draw pictures of buildings, so I'll just hire someone that does (barring for a moment that I lack the knowledge about the profession that would allow me to judge talent in the first place)." T…

Good programmers do live all over, but there are selection effects at work. In the US programmers tend to be people who like to program. In many other countries they are a cross section of smart college grads who do it more because it is a job that pays well and can be done over the internet.

Re: The Risk in Sending Your Startup’s Technology Offshore

#34

Post by syntern » Wed, Sep 10, 2014, 3:38 PM UTC

kcmarshall wrote: post #18

I don't think you can over-emphasize the challenges in communication with off-shore teams. I have worked with several in corporate IT and just reaching a minimal baseline of understanding has proven difficult. Some of this is basic talking and listening; phone conferences will suck! Think about your typical (dysfunctional) phone conf and then slash the quality of the phone line/Skype connection. Add in the variable a…

Working with offshore teams is no different than working with . You need to learn it. It is not the same as working with an in-house team. Different tradeoffs, gotchas and benefits.

Re: The Risk in Sending Your Startup’s Technology Offshore

#35

Post by gmarx » Wed, Sep 10, 2014, 3:41 PM UTC

jacquesm wrote: post #4

That's a pretty good article. (If you're reading this, there is a 'they're' where it should be 'their' in the 2nd bullet). What I miss is that the article places the weight of the potential problems with the party that is being hired. More often than not the real problem is the inability of the outsourcing company to mange their relationship properly, to adequately spec what it is that they need and to do sufficient…

Good point. He says you need to make them do documentation; How about your responsibility to document requirements/specs?

Re: The Risk in Sending Your Startup’s Technology Offshore

#36

Post by jacquesm » Wed, Sep 10, 2014, 3:42 PM UTC

Pxtl wrote: post #31

jacquesm wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But yeah, the inability to extract the words "I don't understand" or "I don't know" from foreign workers drives me utterly batty. That's a cultural thing, and you're doing it wrong if you are trying to extract admissions out of people. That's the totally counter-productive approach. I understand that from a 'western' background admitting to failure, a lack of knowledge or even downright incompetence does not have t…

I know, it's just hard. I hate dealing with an open loop - I have no feedback whether I'm explaining too much or too little.

You could ask for a re-telling, that will give you the closed loop. Just ask someone to explain the concept to you rather than the other way around.

Re: The Risk in Sending Your Startup’s Technology Offshore

#37

Post by jacquesm » Wed, Sep 10, 2014, 3:43 PM UTC

notacoward wrote: post #30

Pxtl wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm always confused why companies don't invest more in better teleconferencing tech. I mean, for a small fraction of the money being saved with offshore work you could have a meeting room full of screens and networked whiteboards and wearable high-quality mics and wall-mounted cameras and crystal-clear VOIP and whatnot, to put you "in the room" with your counterparts. None of this technology is science fiction. But y…

Many offshore teams don't have anywhere to put that teleconferencing equipment. They're often totally slammed for space as it is, they have relatively poor IP connectivity, sometimes they don't even have reliable power. So the cost is really the equipment plus the infrastructure upgrades, to solve only one part of the problem. It might still be worth it, but it's not a slam-dunk by any means.

And that assumes overlap between office hours.

Re: The Risk in Sending Your Startup’s Technology Offshore

#38

Post by syntern » Wed, Sep 10, 2014, 3:43 PM UTC

ivanhoe wrote: post #21

Main problem is that someone in US just can't get the relevant info on 99% of the overseas teams out there. The ones that you first google out are usually the ones who advertise the most and who generally always oversell their resources, and thus produce really bad results. Experienced small teams usually already have a number of clients, work hard and are not that visible or fast growing. So try playing smarter and…

Having worked with offshore teams and being in the role of an offshore team, I completely agree.

If someone is looking for an offshore team, follow this approach: look for a outstanding, talented person. A single person, who you can develop trust with, and ask him about his core team and colleagues. If they are for your liking, go with them as the offshore team: they may not have all the people at the time of the discussions, but usually they are able to build a team in a short time.

That way, they are really committed to your project, and you won't be just another client that has some meetings with them.

Re: The Risk in Sending Your Startup’s Technology Offshore

#39

Post by JoeAltmaier » Wed, Sep 10, 2014, 3:43 PM UTC

Pxtl wrote: post #22

kcmarshall wrote: post #18

I don't think you can over-emphasize the challenges in communication with off-shore teams. I have worked with several in corporate IT and just reaching a minimal baseline of understanding has proven difficult. Some of this is basic talking and listening; phone conferences will suck! Think about your typical (dysfunctional) phone conf and then slash the quality of the phone line/Skype connection. Add in the variable a…

I'm always confused why companies don't invest more in better teleconferencing tech. I mean, for a small fraction of the money being saved with offshore work you could have a meeting room full of screens and networked whiteboards and wearable high-quality mics and wall-mounted cameras and crystal-clear VOIP and whatnot, to put you "in the room" with your counterparts. None of this technology is science fiction. But y…

In fact, Sococo (I work here) is a work collaboration tool; its developed in part by an Engineer from the Ukraine. Another hurdle not mentioned in the article: on day in our morning mtg (his evening mtg) he said "I have to go; we're having a revolution today". Apparently his apartment overlooked that square with all the burned couches and embattled soldiers. So, no contact with him for a few days.

Great guy, don't get me wrong! But there's lots of hurdles to an overseas relationship.

Re: The Risk in Sending Your Startup’s Technology Offshore

#40

Post by Pxtl » Wed, Sep 10, 2014, 3:47 PM UTC

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #39

Pxtl wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm always confused why companies don't invest more in better teleconferencing tech. I mean, for a small fraction of the money being saved with offshore work you could have a meeting room full of screens and networked whiteboards and wearable high-quality mics and wall-mounted cameras and crystal-clear VOIP and whatnot, to put you "in the room" with your counterparts. None of this technology is science fiction. But y…

In fact, Sococo (I work here) is a work collaboration tool; its developed in part by an Engineer from the Ukraine. Another hurdle not mentioned in the article: on day in our morning mtg (his evening mtg) he said "I have to go; we're having a revolution today". Apparently his apartment overlooked that square with all the burned couches and embattled soldiers. So, no contact with him for a few days. Great guy, don't ge…

That's not exactly an everyday event outside of certain worst-case-scenario African countries.

Disasters happen everywhere, including home. An ice storm could knock out your power for a week, or a hurricane or an earthquake depending on where you live.