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A hilariously sad tale of gender bias

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Re: A hilariously sad tale of gender bias

#31

Post by droithomme »

Referenced article mentions a case where some random critic on the net criticizes a CEO who writes books touching on recruitment issues from the candidate perspective, claiming they are a recruiter. Random critic essentially argues that CEO is not a programmer since they don't have code.

I think it's a legitimate practice in the field to look at whether someone develops actual code and if their code works in order to evaluate whether or not they are actually a programmer. This is because there are a lot of posers and incompetents in the field. Seeing actual code and/or projects the person has built cuts through a lot of Big Talk and claims.

In this particular case, the CEO has listed on her site several projects she developed herself to solve real world problems. This is solid evidence that she is in fact a programmer. Therefore, the random critic's claims are without merit.

Re: A hilariously sad tale of gender bias

#32

Post by vonmoltke »

27182818284 wrote: post #29
ekr wrote: post #19

>"woman who wrote the #2 Computer Science book on Amazon, about coding and technical interview skills" Computer Science has absolutely nothing to do with either coding or interviews, it's a subfield of mathematics.

This might be true outside the US, but certainly not from what I've seen in the US. In the US, a lot of curriculum in CS majors include coding, interview practices and more—and that's a good thing because there doesn't seem to be a lot of dedicated "software development" majors in existence. I can think of a computer engineering curriculum that actually requires a half-semester course in interview practicing and cove…

> and that's a good thing because there doesn't seem to be a lot of dedicated "software development" majors in existence.

Actually, I think it's a bad thing. The sooner Computer Science and Software Engineering become separate disciplines, the better.

Re: A hilariously sad tale of gender bias

#33

Post by troupe »

There are many stereotypes that go along with being a programmer that are negative. There are stereotypes that go along with being a recruiter that are positive. While gender may have something to do with people thinking she is a recruiter it may not be the main factor. If you meet someone who is well spoken, well dressed, writes books on how to interview, knows how to talk about code, etc. might there be a greater chance that their job is something other than writing code every day?

Re: A hilariously sad tale of gender bias

#34

Post by possibilistic »

oddevan wrote: post #27
ivraatiems wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hate to break it to you, but it'll never not be an issue. Humans stereotype. It's a natural function for us. It may not be as much of an issue on a specific topic (race, gender, sexuality, etc.), but it will never not be an issue. Also, you probably do it too. That's okay - we all do. The trick that people haven't learned is not letting their automatic beliefs have overt influence on their actions.

I'll second this. Bias and prejudice are an unavoidable part of human nature. I wish that wasn't the case, but it's the reality we live in. The most ANY of us can do is 1) Recognize our biases and work to look past them, and 2) Apologize when we get it wrong and try to improve #2 is the difference between acting like an asshole and being an asshole.

Thanks for raising this point. It's absolutely correct, and I agree with both of you.

It still irks me when biases are so general and aimed at an entire set of people. I know I do the same internally for some populations or interest groups, but it still makes me mad when I see it done by others on the basis of race, gender, sexual preference, etc. I'm probably guilty at some level too sometimes... :/

Re: A hilariously sad tale of gender bias

#36

Post by icebraining »

programminggeek wrote: post #21

This probably should be a blog post with deeper research, but I swear it must be a human rite of passage to have the established groups treat some minority or "new" group poorly. For example, it wasn't but 100 years ago in the USA that groups like Irish, Germans, Italians, Chinese, etc. were looked down on as poor immigrants who were taking "real" American jobs. They eventually were accepted only to turn around and p…

Eventually, all the current minorities, including women

Women are not a minority; not in the US nor in the vast majority of countries.

Re: A hilariously sad tale of gender bias

#38

Post by vadman »

crazypyro wrote: post #11
SloopJon wrote: post #3

Title should probably be changed from "We Don't Just Need More Women in Tech, We Need Fewer Assholes" to "A hilariously sad tale of gender bias." (Not sure if I should put a spoiler alert or something.) The author of a popular series of books on preparing for technical interviews was upset that, after talking about code for an hour, people assume that she's a recruiter, rather than a programmer. I'll try not to make…

>Is it at all possible that the perspective of someone who writes books like that comes off as recruiterish? This was my first thought as well. As soon as she identified herself, I immediately understood how someone could write her off as a recruiter, based entirely on her body of public works. There are many people in the world that will judge someone by the books they wrote and immediately have an image in their mi…

I actually went to college with Gayle - she was a TA* in one of my harder, more rigorous classes. I never got to know her personally, but I find it hard to believe that you can talk to her for an entire hour and not figure out that her knowledge and understanding are way beyond those of a recruiter, even a smart one. Says more about the listener, IMO.

Personal anecdote, take it for what it's worth.

*TA = teaching assistant, older students hand-picked by professors to conduct help sessions for the current year's crop, as well as grade homeworks/exams. I.e. you need to do well in a class to qualify.

Re: A hilariously sad tale of gender bias

#39

Post by scott_s »

ekr wrote: post #19

>"woman who wrote the #2 Computer Science book on Amazon, about coding and technical interview skills" Computer Science has absolutely nothing to do with either coding or interviews, it's a subfield of mathematics.

I've addressed the whole "CS is math" thing so much, I wrote an essay on it: http://www.scott-a-s.com/cs-is-not-math/

Re: A hilariously sad tale of gender bias

#40

Post by pas »

vonmoltke wrote: post #32
27182818284 wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This might be true outside the US, but certainly not from what I've seen in the US. In the US, a lot of curriculum in CS majors include coding, interview practices and more—and that's a good thing because there doesn't seem to be a lot of dedicated "software development" majors in existence. I can think of a computer engineering curriculum that actually requires a half-semester course in interview practicing and cove…

> and that's a good thing because there doesn't seem to be a lot of dedicated "software development" majors in existence. Actually, I think it's a bad thing. The sooner Computer Science and Software Engineering become separate disciplines, the better.

SEs need to know results from CS. That might be seen as separate, but knowing results and when to apply which, I think requires one to be at least a bit CS-educated. So, no, they're not separate in the ideal case, but obviously, results in CS are arrived at through mathematics and rigorous proofs, whereas resutls in SE are usually produced via code.
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