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A hilariously sad tale of gender bias

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Re: A hilariously sad tale of gender bias

#21

Post by programminggeek »

This probably should be a blog post with deeper research, but I swear it must be a human rite of passage to have the established groups treat some minority or "new" group poorly.

For example, it wasn't but 100 years ago in the USA that groups like Irish, Germans, Italians, Chinese, etc. were looked down on as poor immigrants who were taking "real" American jobs. They eventually were accepted only to turn around and put down people who were Black, Latino, Women, etc.

Acceptance of African Americans and Women has improved a lot, and in some places Mexicans are more easily accepted than other places. However, there are still plenty of people that treat those groups poorly.

Eventually, all the current minorities, including women, will be accepted only to turn around and treat some other group like crap. Why? I assume it's because it's human nature and it's the cycle that seems to happen for things that are different. At some point we all get bullied and we all take turns bullying someone else.

It'd be nice to just skip over the ugliness, but that's not really how it works with people.

Also, let us not forget that getting treated poorly is not always a minority issue. Some people are just plain jerks and they treat everybody like crap. That's not an excuse, but no amount of positive change will get rid of jerks. They are in every industry and almost every company.

Re: A hilariously sad tale of gender bias

#23

Post by vonmoltke »

ekr wrote: post #19

>"woman who wrote the #2 Computer Science book on Amazon, about coding and technical interview skills" Computer Science has absolutely nothing to do with either coding or interviews, it's a subfield of mathematics.

Amazon doesn't agree:

> #1 in Books > Textbooks > Computer Science > Software Design & Engineering

Re: A hilariously sad tale of gender bias

#25

Post by navait »

ddebernardy wrote: post #17
bluetshirt wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, but we have an opportunity to be a leader and not a follower. To be on the right side of history, so to speak.

For that, the first step should probably be to have more women in STEM classes so they can get recruited in these industries to begin with. I've no idea how it currently is, but back when I was studying the ratio was something like 90% male in some curriculums. (There were exceptions, e.g. chemistry or biology, but they were rather rare.) Has this changed since?

I think it peaked at some point during the 80's and then declined. Ancedotally, I've certainly met more women who wrote cobol and the like back in the day than women working in my current career. And there are a lot more women in my CS graduate program than I've met working at web startups.

Re: A hilariously sad tale of gender bias

#26

Post by crazypyro »

ekr wrote: post #19

>"woman who wrote the #2 Computer Science book on Amazon, about coding and technical interview skills" Computer Science has absolutely nothing to do with either coding or interviews, it's a subfield of mathematics.

Coding is the main way that computer science is implemented. This is like complaining that doing titrimetry isn't part of Chemistry or drafting isn't a part of civil engineering. It's true that C.S. is a subset of math in a strict, theoretical definition, but the practical application of the science is highly important.

Re: A hilariously sad tale of gender bias

#27

Post by oddevan »

ivraatiems wrote: post #16
possibilistic wrote: post #8

Reading anecdotes like this makes me so disappointed in my gender. Why do some people marginalize other groups so eagerly? I see so much "bro culture" in our field, and it feels inescapable. Every time I experience it, I literally cringe. I'm not even a party to being singled out; I can't imagine what it must be like to have this garbage directed at you. The sad thing is, I used to be picked on and ostracized by thes…

I hate to break it to you, but it'll never not be an issue. Humans stereotype. It's a natural function for us. It may not be as much of an issue on a specific topic (race, gender, sexuality, etc.), but it will never not be an issue. Also, you probably do it too. That's okay - we all do. The trick that people haven't learned is not letting their automatic beliefs have overt influence on their actions.

I'll second this. Bias and prejudice are an unavoidable part of human nature. I wish that wasn't the case, but it's the reality we live in. The most ANY of us can do is 1) Recognize our biases and work to look past them, and 2) Apologize when we get it wrong and try to improve

#2 is the difference between acting like an asshole and being an asshole.

Re: A hilariously sad tale of gender bias

#29

Post by 27182818284 »

ekr wrote: post #19

>"woman who wrote the #2 Computer Science book on Amazon, about coding and technical interview skills" Computer Science has absolutely nothing to do with either coding or interviews, it's a subfield of mathematics.

This might be true outside the US, but certainly not from what I've seen in the US.

In the US, a lot of curriculum in CS majors include coding, interview practices and more—and that's a good thing because there doesn't seem to be a lot of dedicated "software development" majors in existence.

I can think of a computer engineering curriculum that actually requires a half-semester course in interview practicing and cover letter writing. Similarly I can think of a major state university whose CS includes a semester project for a company / organization outside the university in teams of four. That same university has a required CS course where you have to maintain the code of previous students in the course, to give you a taste of that real world aspect. And those courses are taken in between or while you take your standard courses on algorithms, discrete math, etc.

Though true I know a professor of CS who ONLY works on a chalkboard, the vast majority don't and the vast majority of CS grads don't either.

Re: A hilariously sad tale of gender bias

#30

Post by tomp »

programminggeek wrote: post #21

This probably should be a blog post with deeper research, but I swear it must be a human rite of passage to have the established groups treat some minority or "new" group poorly. For example, it wasn't but 100 years ago in the USA that groups like Irish, Germans, Italians, Chinese, etc. were looked down on as poor immigrants who were taking "real" American jobs. They eventually were accepted only to turn around and p…

> Why? I assume it's because it's human nature and it's the cycle that seems to happen for things that are different

When it comes to the in-groups, it's not really bullying. IMO, it's more like a fitness-test, i.e. subjecting the new person who wants to be a member of an established group to some difficulty, so that the person is tempted to give up, and only those that really want to become members are accepted.

For example, I'm less than thrilled by the current campaign of "more women/kids/blacks/lations/people" in tech, because I feel that all these people just want to be programmers because of the money. I didn't want to become a programmer (I actually wanted not to become one), I just spent so much time in front of a computer that I learned a lot about it. I will never be able to regard someone as an "equal" (true geek) that just got in for the money. If you compare the current craze with 5/10 years ago (before the big salaries started), there is a huge difference in attitude towards the geeks, which makes the general public's motivations painfully obvious.

Another example: I'm not sure if that's a true depiction of Jews, but when Charlotte (from Sex and the City) decides she wants to convert to Judaism (to marry a Jew), she is turned away 3 times by the rabbi, before they let her start with the process.

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