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PayPal’s Braintree Embraces Bitcoin, One-Touch Payments

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Re: PayPal’s Braintree Embraces Bitcoin, One-Touch Payments

#101

Post by zanny »

ac29 wrote: post #57
IkmoIkmo wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> why would anyone want to exchange a reasonable stable national currency for bitcoin? Name me 10 currencies you'd be comfortable holding. It'll probably be very difficult. Fact is, billions use currencies with high inflation rates and with relatively short lifespans. And it's not just places like Zimbabwe that have many problems besides insane inflation the past decade. It's also relatively developed countries like…

>Bitcoin can save 1-3% in fees on any transaction. Cash has no fees and debit has negligible fees (a few cents plus up to 0.05% in the US). Most B2B transactions aren't done with credit cards either.

In addition to other points, you can consider the arbitrary inflation of fiat as a sort of fee.

When you get fiat from anyone, you can not assume the availability of the same currency tomorrow. The state controlling it can arbitrarily create more whenever they please. That is the dominant source of inflation in fiat currencies, whereas in btc and other cryptocurrencies the velocity of funds becomes the influencer in that same regard. That happens in fiat too, but is overwhelmed by the prevalence of unpredictable money printing.

The point is that with a sufficiently entrenched cryptocurrency, that volatility due to money entering or leaving the market (ie, buy some btc as an investment and sit on it) is drastically reduced (and the volatile availability of funds combined with the speculation gives bitcoin its unpredictable exchange rates) you eliminate the most prevalent forms of unpredictability from your money - since with crytocurrencies, the algorithm makes the monetary base very predictable, and if you had a currency at a "good" inflation rate generating a lot of monetary velocity the frequency of funds leaving the system for an extended time (besides lost wallets) would be even more negligible.

That inherent overhead of unpredictability in fiat is a natural "fee" that everyone has to subconsciously consider what evaluating transactions using such currencies.

Re: PayPal’s Braintree Embraces Bitcoin, One-Touch Payments

#102

Post by battani »

beaner wrote: post #97
battani wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So chargebacks due to fraud simply wouldn't be there. That is far from the only reason there is credit card fraud. Actually most credit card fraud is linked to identity fraud (a hacker stealing someone's financial credentials or posing as them on an online/offline store). Most of the credit card information stolen from Target and Home Depot is not used but sold as quickly as possible on underground forums to "the g…

> thieves don't target "how" you pay (push vs pull doesn't matter) but target where you store your wealth. I wasn't arguing against this. Your credit card is where your wealth is stored, if it can be used to purchase things. And your wealth is stored with Target if they have your CC info. So places like that seem a likely target for attacks. > Contrast that to bitcoin. Your third-party bitcoin storage service gets ha…

> Your credit card is where your wealth is stored.

Your credit card is just a means of payment (a key). Your wealth is stored at your bank.

All these merchants may have your bank keys, but they can't use it to charge you illegally because they will incur costs (a chargeback fee and then some). It a great system in which both the consumer and the merchant are incentivized to behave correctly...

Re: PayPal’s Braintree Embraces Bitcoin, One-Touch Payments

#103

Post by sassypants »

bdcravens wrote: post #98
sassypants wrote: post #88

Bitcoin remains the best and most liquid savings vehicle over the last five years of its existence. Assuming savings = holding currency for over 1 year. On 98% of the days that you could have purchased Bitcoin you would have realized an increase in purchasing power in a year's time. In those 2% of cases where you could have purchased Bitcoin and seen a loss over one year, you would have still seen an increase in purc…

You're using a time-span that's a full 20% of the item's lifespan. Anyone with a single college level statistics class wouldn't be able to keep a straight face reading this. over the last five years of its existence The first exchange didn't come online until summer of 2010. What's the 1 year picture like for everyone who had coins in Mt. Gox?

I've been through college level statistics classes. Nothing I learned in them suggested that holding currency for less than a year was an appropriate measure of savings.

You're complaining that Bitcoin hasn't been around long enough to make a proper measure of its performance. Then you complain that people who gave control of their coins to Mt Gox didn't get their coins back.

I don't understand what these complaints have to do with the fact that Bitcoin has been a fantastic savings vehicle for five years running. (Or four if you prefer)

Re: PayPal’s Braintree Embraces Bitcoin, One-Touch Payments

#104

Post by cgjaro »

battani wrote: post #55
mrb wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why use Bitcoin? 1. As a consumer, it's fast and cheap. My dad in France can send money, instantly, to me who live in the US. No waiting days for wire transfers. No trip to a local Western Union branch necessary. No exhorbitant fee (worldwide remittance fees average 9%!) I don't even have to bother exchanging the coins with dollars to spend them, because more and more merchants begin to accept Bitcoin. 2. For consume…

1. Check out Stellar and Ripple who solve this better than BTC. 2. Is a volatile virtual currency powered by market speculation the best alternative for inflation-ridden currencies? I facepalm every time I hear this argument. 3. and 4. Agreed. Bitcoin is great for merchants. Unfortunately economic demand comes from consumers. More merchants accepting bitcoin does not imply more consumers adopting it, in particular be…

Well numbers prove you wrong. A year ago 1 bitcoin was worth $125 and is now worth $480. A year ago 1 ARS was worth $0.17 but is now worth $0.12. One currency appreciated, the other lost value. Clearly an Argentinian would have been better off putting an investment in Bitcoin than in the Argentine peso.

Bitcoin certainly is volatile (down from $1000+), but on the long term, if you hold it for at LEAST 1 year, it seems to at least keep value, if not gain value.

Re: PayPal’s Braintree Embraces Bitcoin, One-Touch Payments

#105

Post by sassypants »

battani wrote: post #89
sassypants wrote: post #88

Bitcoin remains the best and most liquid savings vehicle over the last five years of its existence. Assuming savings = holding currency for over 1 year. On 98% of the days that you could have purchased Bitcoin you would have realized an increase in purchasing power in a year's time. In those 2% of cases where you could have purchased Bitcoin and seen a loss over one year, you would have still seen an increase in purc…

Facepalm. I can pick 20 small cap stocks that have outperformed the dollar over the past year. That only makes them a good savings vehicle in hindsight. Confusing short-term speculation with sustainable added value here.

Can you pick 20 small cap stocks which have outperformed the dollar over four years? Are there tens of thousands of merchants that will accept said stocks as payment for their products? Are there payroll systems and employees eager to accept these stocks as wages?

The fact that my post is even controversial is kind of silly if you think about it. All you're saying is, "Yeah, but!"

Re: PayPal’s Braintree Embraces Bitcoin, One-Touch Payments

#106

Post by joeyspn »

ac29 wrote: post #57
IkmoIkmo wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> why would anyone want to exchange a reasonable stable national currency for bitcoin? Name me 10 currencies you'd be comfortable holding. It'll probably be very difficult. Fact is, billions use currencies with high inflation rates and with relatively short lifespans. And it's not just places like Zimbabwe that have many problems besides insane inflation the past decade. It's also relatively developed countries like…

>Bitcoin can save 1-3% in fees on any transaction. Cash has no fees and debit has negligible fees (a few cents plus up to 0.05% in the US). Most B2B transactions aren't done with credit cards either.

BitShares + Ethereum are two great teams that are undoubtedly pushing the cryptocurrency ecosystem forward. DAC's and DAO's will bring another wave of cool tech.

I think the next big economic bubble/cycle in cryptoland could come thanks to advancements in these two projects.

The fact that both teams get along really well is also awesome... http://bitshares.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/Dan-Vitalik-...

Re: PayPal’s Braintree Embraces Bitcoin, One-Touch Payments

#107

Post by dreamweapon »

blueking wrote: post #56

Bitcoin was created to get rid of the likes of Paypal.

Was it?

As in, do you have some empirical basis for that statement -- as in, you know, something related to actual statements made by the creator(s) of the original bitcoin protocol itself? Or is it just something you find nifty to believe in (therefore it must be true)?

Please clarify.

Re: PayPal’s Braintree Embraces Bitcoin, One-Touch Payments

#108

Post by bdcravens »

sassypants wrote: post #103
bdcravens wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're using a time-span that's a full 20% of the item's lifespan. Anyone with a single college level statistics class wouldn't be able to keep a straight face reading this. over the last five years of its existence The first exchange didn't come online until summer of 2010. What's the 1 year picture like for everyone who had coins in Mt. Gox?

I've been through college level statistics classes. Nothing I learned in them suggested that holding currency for less than a year was an appropriate measure of savings. You're complaining that Bitcoin hasn't been around long enough to make a proper measure of its performance. Then you complain that people who gave control of their coins to Mt Gox didn't get their coins back. I don't understand what these complaints…

I don't deny its performance, and I'm actually quite bullish on it. I just think 365-665 days is a fairly arbitrary number, and a lifetime of 4-5 years is not enough to draw conclusions from.

Re: PayPal’s Braintree Embraces Bitcoin, One-Touch Payments

#109

Post by jnbiche »

atmosx wrote: post #100
jnbiche wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Democracy and anonymous, decentralized currencies do not play well together So now the true colors come out, cute little emoticons notwithstanding. Do you want to ban Bitcoin?

My true colors were there from the beginning, if you cared to look[1]. No, ban bitcoin is a huge mistake IMHO. BTC is a great innovation and has extremely interesting features. I already mentioned transaction speed elsewhere. I believe that we need to wait and see if volatility stabilizes at some point. Then I'd like to see an easier way of conversion from currency-to-btc and back. That said I'd never put the faith o…

>But relying grandma's pension on BTC? That's unethical to me (and stupid).

Who has suggested investing pensions in Bitcoin? I've never heard anyone make a bona fide argument for this.

Re: PayPal’s Braintree Embraces Bitcoin, One-Touch Payments

#110

Post by dreamweapon »

mrb wrote: post #38
dangerlibrary wrote: post #8

Serious question: If one is engaged in entirely legal activities - no money laundering, no drugs, no illegal weapons, no tax evasion, no slipping around international monetary controls - why would one want to use Bitcoin? With the volatility of Bitcoin's price, transfer costs of traditional payment methods (1-3%) are totally dwarfed by the risk of holding Bitcoins for even a short period of time. Maybe there is some…

Why use Bitcoin? 1. As a consumer, it's fast and cheap. My dad in France can send money, instantly, to me who live in the US. No waiting days for wire transfers. No trip to a local Western Union branch necessary. No exhorbitant fee (worldwide remittance fees average 9%!) I don't even have to bother exchanging the coins with dollars to spend them, because more and more merchants begin to accept Bitcoin. 2. For consume…

My dad in France can send money, instantly, to me who live(s) in the US.

Umm, no. He can't send you "money", using BTC. All he can send you is bitcoin. There's still this pesky business of converting between bitcoin and fiat currency, on either end. And all the preamble about getting your Uncle to sign onto one of these proxy services (and to accept the general idea of bitcoin), and all that.

Maybe the overhead works out favorably in favor of BTC in the end, or maybe it doesn't. But the tradeoff isn't nearly as simple as you're making it out to be.

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