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PayPal’s Braintree Embraces Bitcoin, One-Touch Payments

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Re: PayPal’s Braintree Embraces Bitcoin, One-Touch Payments

#31
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Holding bitcoins isn't required to spend money using the Bitcoin network. Services can let you purchase bitcoins when you're making a payment and send them instantly. (They need your credit card as a backup payment method in case the ACH fails.) Sellers quote a Bitcoin price that is stable for 15 minutes. There is no price fluctuation during a purchase. It's effectively paying with your bank account over the Bitcoin…

What you describe is basically: Fiat -> Credit Card/ACH -> Bitcoin -> Fiat -> ACH (on supplier). You are basically adding at least two extra steps in a transaction vs. what exists now. How is this better than what exists now?

[deleted]

Re: PayPal’s Braintree Embraces Bitcoin, One-Touch Payments

#32

Serious question: If one is engaged in entirely legal activities - no money laundering, no drugs, no illegal weapons, no tax evasion, no slipping around international monetary controls - why would one want to use Bitcoin? With the volatility of Bitcoin's price, transfer costs of traditional payment methods (1-3%) are totally dwarfed by the risk of holding Bitcoins for even a short period of time. Maybe there is some…

Because a lot of us dream of a decentralized, digital world currency enabling frictionless global trade, and we are willing to sacrifice exposure to volatility to achieve that goal.

And a lot of us have very specific attitudes toward the role of government in peaceful, non-exploitative trade, and see Bitcoin as a possible solution to what we see as constant governmental overreach.

In short, we're idealists. We've been at the forefront of many revolutionary technologies (Internet, 3d printing, etc.).

Re: PayPal’s Braintree Embraces Bitcoin, One-Touch Payments

#33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Using PayPal is a really bad way to sell bitcoins, because PayPal lets the buyer dispute the transaction, reversing payment. If you sell bitcoins via PayPal, you're taking a big counterparty risk (not to mention the 3rd party, PayPal itself).

> PayPal lets the buyer dispute the transaction, reversing payment. What would be the alternative? CC, ACH, and most other payment systems also have a mechanism for chargebacks.

[deleted]

Re: PayPal’s Braintree Embraces Bitcoin, One-Touch Payments

#34

Serious question: If one is engaged in entirely legal activities - no money laundering, no drugs, no illegal weapons, no tax evasion, no slipping around international monetary controls - why would one want to use Bitcoin? With the volatility of Bitcoin's price, transfer costs of traditional payment methods (1-3%) are totally dwarfed by the risk of holding Bitcoins for even a short period of time. Maybe there is some…

Most bitcoin services end up charging more than 1-3% anyway.

Re: PayPal’s Braintree Embraces Bitcoin, One-Touch Payments

#35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd imagine the greatest benefit would be as a low friction P2P payment option. It's still hard to just send a fixed amount of money to someone with traditional payment systems, and if both parties have and use BTC, it would be pretty convenient.

> a fixed amount of money That's still tricky with bitcoin, though, no? You can certainly send a fixed amount of BTC, but that value is probably going to get pegged to a national currency when you want to spend it.

True, which is part of the reason I've held off on buying any (price volatility still concerns me).

In theory though, it is a superior payment transfer method between individuals, compared with the current system. But it has a lot of drawbacks right now, as well.

Re: PayPal’s Braintree Embraces Bitcoin, One-Touch Payments

#36

Serious question: If one is engaged in entirely legal activities - no money laundering, no drugs, no illegal weapons, no tax evasion, no slipping around international monetary controls - why would one want to use Bitcoin? With the volatility of Bitcoin's price, transfer costs of traditional payment methods (1-3%) are totally dwarfed by the risk of holding Bitcoins for even a short period of time. Maybe there is some…

> why would anyone want to exchange a reasonable stable national currency for bitcoin?

Name me 10 currencies you'd be comfortable holding. It'll probably be very difficult. Fact is, billions use currencies with high inflation rates and with relatively short lifespans. And it's not just places like Zimbabwe that have many problems besides insane inflation the past decade. It's also relatively developed countries like Argentina that suffer from insane inflation. It's also small stable countries with a nice standard of living ($27k GDP PPP) with an educated population like Cyprus where many lost their savings as bank deposits were frozen or seized.

And that's just protection from governmental malfeasance that hundreds of millions have to be aware of. But it's also the fact that billions are unbanked. We at HN know more than anyone that providing a physical service (like mail delivery) is 1 million times more expensive than a digital service (like e-mail). Same for banking, for vaults, for ATMs, for services like lending, payments, remittance or money transfer. A digital version can be much cheaper, as well as more accessible. (for a bank you often need proof of identity, residence and employment. Good luck when you have no birth certificate, when you live in a slum, when you have an off-the-record job like selling fruit on the corner of the street). Digital banking can bring cheap financial services to hundreds of millions who don't have it, yet have (intermittent) access to networks as simple as SMS or radio, which can plug in to gateways to the bitcoin network.

Next up is us, the wealthy who enjoy relatively nice financial services. Bitcoin can save 1-3% in fees on any transaction. Imagine that there's a 1-3% tax on everything, not value added, everything, every transaction, whether B2C or B2B, and you have a way to remove that. That's very significant. Entire industries run on margins of 1-5%. Amazon's 2013 margin was 0.35%, imagine they could shave off even 0.5%.

Now that doesn't mean we all should actually buy and hold bitcoin. As you say, the volatility dwarfs this percentage. But volatility can be exclusive to investors. For example, Bitreserve (founded by the founder of CNET) lets you lock in the price. That means you can buy $100 of bitcoin, and see $100 on your account, as if it was Paypal. And then you can spend that $100 anytime you want, and it'll always be worth that much. On the backend the service then lets investors create a market to lock in that price, where various investors make short or long bets, a derivatives market can take out the volatility for the customer, thereby allowing people to use bitcoin, save costs, yet be shielded from volatility. That means business to business payments, too.

Besides that there's lots of other things. Like the fact it can be much more secure. Creditcard fraud is rampant as your password is essentially on the card and you have to share it everytime you pay, it's crazy. Chargeback fraud is an issue. Identity theft is therefore an issue. And you can envision crazy things like a Google driverless car paying, on the fly, to another driverless car infront of it, to move away, so that it can take that lane and go faster, because the one in the back is willing to pay extra for speed, and the one in front is okay with arriving a little later. Those kinds of thing can almost only be built on a global, permissionless protocol layer. So indeed none of us may use bitcoin, it may just be a machine to machine currency, it's too early to tell, it can have an impact in many different ways.

Re: PayPal’s Braintree Embraces Bitcoin, One-Touch Payments

#37
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Holding bitcoins isn't required to spend money using the Bitcoin network. Services can let you purchase bitcoins when you're making a payment and send them instantly. (They need your credit card as a backup payment method in case the ACH fails.) Sellers quote a Bitcoin price that is stable for 15 minutes. There is no price fluctuation during a purchase. It's effectively paying with your bank account over the Bitcoin…

What you describe is basically: Fiat -> Credit Card/ACH -> Bitcoin -> Fiat -> ACH (on supplier). You are basically adding at least two extra steps in a transaction vs. what exists now. How is this better than what exists now?

ACH is slow, so taking out the Bitcoin steps isn't possible today. Bitcoin wasn't required for this flow. PayPal had all the pieces, but they didn't put them together the right way.

Re: PayPal’s Braintree Embraces Bitcoin, One-Touch Payments

#38

Serious question: If one is engaged in entirely legal activities - no money laundering, no drugs, no illegal weapons, no tax evasion, no slipping around international monetary controls - why would one want to use Bitcoin? With the volatility of Bitcoin's price, transfer costs of traditional payment methods (1-3%) are totally dwarfed by the risk of holding Bitcoins for even a short period of time. Maybe there is some…

Why use Bitcoin?

1. As a consumer, it's fast and cheap. My dad in France can send money, instantly, to me who live in the US. No waiting days for wire transfers. No trip to a local Western Union branch necessary. No exhorbitant fee (worldwide remittance fees average 9%!) I don't even have to bother exchanging the coins with dollars to spend them, because more and more merchants begin to accept Bitcoin.

2. For consumers in countries who do not have a stable currency (Argentina with 30%+ year-over-year inflation!) - Bitcoin helps them protect the value of their savings.

3. As a merchant, Bitcoin reduces fraud to zero from my viewpoint. When my site receives a Bitcoin payment from some first-time customer from a foreign country, I can still ship the goods or services to him without worrying it is a fraudulent purchase that will be charged back, because Bitcoin payments are irreversible unlike credit cards.

4. As a merchant, I make more profits. CC payment processing companies typically charge approximately $2 on the purchase of a $100 item. My industry has thin profit margins: the item might have cost me $95 from my distributor, so I make only $3 profit per sale. However typical Bitcoin payment processors like Coinbase or Bitpay only charge 0-1% in fees. So I make $4-5 dollars of profit per sale. This is 33-66% higher profits per sale!

Re: PayPal’s Braintree Embraces Bitcoin, One-Touch Payments

#39
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Merchants are paying 3% or so to accept money from their customers today. There are zero-fee, instant conversions for customers and merchants to use Bitcoin (Circle and BitPay, respectively). Once the user experience is right, customers will pay using funds from their bank account via Bitcoin with near-zero costs (slight exchange rate differences between services), and merchants will offer their customers discounts t…

Every HN thread that discusses bitcoin contains this claim. What can you do to support this? Will the providers of this superior user experience not expect compensation for their efforts? Will miners not expect compensation once the coin limit has been reached? Will bitcoin transaction companies not need extra coin around to account for fraud? How can there possibly be no fees when a third party is required for the c…

There will be (and is now) the possibility for a merchant to accept Bitcoin with 0 fees. These will be the merchants who are able set up open source payment processing system by themselves (or willing to pay someone to do this).

Others will pay a small fee for the convenient that a full-service solution provides. Right now, bitpay charges 0% and a small monthly fee for payment processing. To be honest, I see them staying with that business model, perhaps permanently.

If they or other incumbents start jacking up the fees, someone else will take their place. Bitcoin community is swarming with entrepreneurs.

Re: PayPal’s Braintree Embraces Bitcoin, One-Touch Payments

#40

Serious question: If one is engaged in entirely legal activities - no money laundering, no drugs, no illegal weapons, no tax evasion, no slipping around international monetary controls - why would one want to use Bitcoin? With the volatility of Bitcoin's price, transfer costs of traditional payment methods (1-3%) are totally dwarfed by the risk of holding Bitcoins for even a short period of time. Maybe there is some…

The serious answer is that he would never do that EXCEPT if the advantages offered by BTC would overshadow the disadvantages.

For example if I need to send money to China within an hour without prior notice, BTC would be extremely handy.

However, I don't know or can think of any such because turning BTC into local currency is both hard and expensive.

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