PayPal’s Braintree Embraces Bitcoin, One-Touch Payments • Hacker News Board

Re: PayPal’s Braintree Embraces Bitcoin, One-Touch Payments

#61

Post by beaner » Mon, Sep 08, 2014, 8:53 PM UTC

dangerlibrary wrote: post #47

IkmoIkmo wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> why would anyone want to exchange a reasonable stable national currency for bitcoin? Name me 10 currencies you'd be comfortable holding. It'll probably be very difficult. Fact is, billions use currencies with high inflation rates and with relatively short lifespans. And it's not just places like Zimbabwe that have many problems besides insane inflation the past decade. It's also relatively developed countries like…

But so little of that is exclusive to BTC as opposed to a digital transaction valued in national currency, and almost none of the benefits you list accrue to consumers - they all benefit merchants. - Getting rid of charge back fraud also gets rid of charge backs - an important consumer protection. - I don't need 10 currencies I'd be comfortable holding, but any of these - http://fxtrade.oanda.com/analysis/currency-vo…

- Chargebacks happen when cards are stolen. Cards are stolen because they are fundamentally pull payment methods. Every time you pay, you hand the keys to your money over to someone else. Think about this for a second, because it is absolutely insane.

Whenever you pay with a credit card, you have to trust the merchant to (1) charge the right amount, (2) only do it once, and (3) themselves take your privacy seriously enough to not have your information stolen by another party, who, if they did get hold of your card info, could abuse it at will and then share with more 3rd parties or have it stolen from them!

Credit cards are broken fundamentally. If the only kinds of payments were push payments, where consumers choose when to pay and the merchant has no ability to pull at will, the entire issue of credit card thefts - think Target, Home Depot, or the Russian hackers - would simply not exist.

So chargebacks due to fraud simply wouldn't be there. Sure, there are other use cases for chargebacks, like you felt you didn't get what you paid for or something, but that switches to a customer service issue which increases competition among merchants.

- Who cares about volatility? You don't need to own bitcoin to use it. When you want to send it, buy it at the time, then send it. Big whoop.

Also what is volatility on $100? Are you that concerned about losing or gaining $5, $10, $20 in a day, with a total maximum limit of losing at most $100 if it goes to zero, which seems extremely unlikely? Nobody said you have to invest your life savings. Participating in the technology is as expensive or as cheap as you would like.

- "Bankless people need banks, not cryptocurrencies." - Why? You didn't actually say.

"There's no difference to a bankless person between a mobile app to an online bank and a bitcoin gateway." - Which is great, because since "people need banks" (your words), bitcoin can finally provide it to them.

- "My credit card pays me back a chunk of that "1-3% tax on everything," my bitcoin wallet doesn't." - This is short-term thinking. Wouldn't you want something that can provide lower fees to gain market share in the long term, so that discount is not just available to the exclusive group of people who qualify for nice credit cards, but to every person, regardless of qualifications or payment methods?

- Last point is covered by my first point.

Re: PayPal’s Braintree Embraces Bitcoin, One-Touch Payments

#62

Post by atmosx » Mon, Sep 08, 2014, 8:54 PM UTC

martindale wrote: post #29

dangerlibrary wrote: post #8

Serious question: If one is engaged in entirely legal activities - no money laundering, no drugs, no illegal weapons, no tax evasion, no slipping around international monetary controls - why would one want to use Bitcoin? With the volatility of Bitcoin's price, transfer costs of traditional payment methods (1-3%) are totally dwarfed by the risk of holding Bitcoins for even a short period of time. Maybe there is some…

The case is much clearer outside of the US, where the drawbacks of centralized currencies are more visible. For example, Argentina's rate of inflation was 30% in January alone.

I don't believe you people!

Say Goldman Sachs decides to enter BTC. What % of BTC in circulation do you think the biggest investment bank can buy? Let's settle for a 5%.

Then Agentina decides to dump the USD and go with BTC. Suddenly GS wants to make the 5% share jump to 6% without spending money, because that's what they do! The broker starts dumping (selling) massive amounts of BTC to the market. Everyone goes crazy and starts selling too, because the price is diving. At the same time and without notice GS starts buying, while everyone else is selling/dumping. Now the Argentian government is way poorer, because they used BTC to buy services when BTC was trading for 450 USD but now they have to sell, and because of GS, BTC is trading to 150 USD.

Having to rely in a foreign currency as the USD/EUR, essentially gives you the ability to get many more short-term loans, because it adds value to your 'products' but gives away control. You can't control your currency anymore so you can't make policy decisions based on your needs. See Greece for example. If Greece didn't had the EUR, it could never have gone in that debt. Additionally if it has the Drachma (old GR currency) it would have been able to devalue and boost exports. Now Greece depends on Brussels and the only thing it can do is cut expenses which leads in vicious cycle of poverty.

What you're describing, though is even worst. Having to rely on a currency that is controlled by whom has the biggest %, in a totally anonymous scope, is madness in the purest form and a recipe for disaster. Worst than anything you've ever seen because it will be instant and without notice.

Imagine what would have happened to the UK in 1992 (Black Wednesday), is the Bank of England wasn't able to exit the ERM. GBP would have ultimately fail in one week time.

Re: PayPal’s Braintree Embraces Bitcoin, One-Touch Payments

#63

Post by innguest » Mon, Sep 08, 2014, 8:56 PM UTC

blueking wrote: post #56

Bitcoin was created to get rid of the likes of Paypal.

Then help me make sense of why Paypal is partnering with Coinbase (straight question).

Re: PayPal’s Braintree Embraces Bitcoin, One-Touch Payments

#64

Post by infogulch » Mon, Sep 08, 2014, 8:56 PM UTC

atmosx wrote: post #48

mrb wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why use Bitcoin? 1. As a consumer, it's fast and cheap. My dad in France can send money, instantly, to me who live in the US. No waiting days for wire transfers. No trip to a local Western Union branch necessary. No exhorbitant fee (worldwide remittance fees average 9%!) I don't even have to bother exchanging the coins with dollars to spend them, because more and more merchants begin to accept Bitcoin. 2. For consume…

1. It's a not a real-world scenario. Especially the part where you don't spend USD becuase more merchants begin to accept BTC , like if you're going to buy bread with BTC. You're not and if you do, you're 1 in 100.000.000.000. 2. Yes, that might work but it's extremely risky and complicated. When if you need to cash out quickly? What if BTC prices goes back to 150 USD because a large BTC holder (an investment bank) d…

4. Gold backed? We're past the 70's, man, there are no gold backed currencies in heavy use now. l3rn 2 fiat. Joking aside, more technically, the value of all currencies are in the faith of its' users that it holds value. (Yes, the circular reasoning is the point.)

"no country who will support it" is a feature. Many users of Bitcoin are deeply mistrustful of the government's ability to manage money, and making it distributed literally puts all the power into the hands of the people.

Re: PayPal’s Braintree Embraces Bitcoin, One-Touch Payments

#65

Post by jerguismi » Mon, Sep 08, 2014, 8:58 PM UTC

ac29 wrote: post #57

IkmoIkmo wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> why would anyone want to exchange a reasonable stable national currency for bitcoin? Name me 10 currencies you'd be comfortable holding. It'll probably be very difficult. Fact is, billions use currencies with high inflation rates and with relatively short lifespans. And it's not just places like Zimbabwe that have many problems besides insane inflation the past decade. It's also relatively developed countries like…

>Bitcoin can save 1-3% in fees on any transaction. Cash has no fees and debit has negligible fees (a few cents plus up to 0.05% in the US). Most B2B transactions aren't done with credit cards either.

Physical cash has actually quite high handling costs. It is not cheap form of money. Ask your nearest cash-handling merchant about it.

Re: PayPal’s Braintree Embraces Bitcoin, One-Touch Payments

#66

Post by alkimie2 » Mon, Sep 08, 2014, 9:00 PM UTC

dangerlibrary wrote: post #8

Serious question: If one is engaged in entirely legal activities - no money laundering, no drugs, no illegal weapons, no tax evasion, no slipping around international monetary controls - why would one want to use Bitcoin? With the volatility of Bitcoin's price, transfer costs of traditional payment methods (1-3%) are totally dwarfed by the risk of holding Bitcoins for even a short period of time. Maybe there is some…

Ask yourself, do you know someone with relatives or business activities overseas? Then ask them about their experiences about doing international financial transactions of any kind.

It is expensive, time consuming, and generally painful. Consider buying something on Alibaba using bitcoin. I'd suggest that bitcoin adoption which is beholden to no particular country, opens up opportunities as a consumer, and more options for finding the right supplier overseas for business.

I've lived in the U.S., Asia and the Middle East, and to me bitcoin answers, or potentially answers, my needs.

And much as I have mixed feelings about paypal, I use it often for ebay and other vendors for convenience. Assuming their fees are not too high, I would not mind using them as an intermediary into traditional bank accounts.

Re: PayPal’s Braintree Embraces Bitcoin, One-Touch Payments

#67

Post by DickingAround » Mon, Sep 08, 2014, 9:01 PM UTC

dangerlibrary wrote: post #47

IkmoIkmo wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> why would anyone want to exchange a reasonable stable national currency for bitcoin? Name me 10 currencies you'd be comfortable holding. It'll probably be very difficult. Fact is, billions use currencies with high inflation rates and with relatively short lifespans. And it's not just places like Zimbabwe that have many problems besides insane inflation the past decade. It's also relatively developed countries like…

But so little of that is exclusive to BTC as opposed to a digital transaction valued in national currency, and almost none of the benefits you list accrue to consumers - they all benefit merchants. - Getting rid of charge back fraud also gets rid of charge backs - an important consumer protection. - I don't need 10 currencies I'd be comfortable holding, but any of these - http://fxtrade.oanda.com/analysis/currency-vo…

Just talking about bitcoin, and not about this specific situation or their adoption: Bitcoin has some minor advantages in technology because the financial industry is slow, but that's not the major reason to adopt. The major reason is trust.

Historically, it's difficult to trust many organizations. The US federal reserve and the US dollar have the best record/reputation in modern history. Top competitors have taken devaluations in WWII and even recently (British pound in 1992, Russian ruble in 1998). That's part of why many people use the dollar. Even now, after 2008, when everyone thought the currency was screwed because money was being printed fast, we didn't see inflation. But the dollar isn't perfect. As recently as the 1970s and 1980s the US dollar experienced double digit inflation.

Bitcoin is an alternative currency with less trust in a central authority. It's got a bunch of other features like you've both been talking about but it's real value add is the lack of central authority (both in terms of volume of currency issued and in terms of your ability to hold your own currency without a 3rd party).

Now, maybe you don't want to use Bitcoin now because you believe a problem with the US dollar or any other local currency is a 'low probability event'. That's totally reasonable. But it's also worth remembering that humans are known to be bad at estimating risk/reward from low probability events. Historically speaking, there will be a currency crisis in the next 50 years. I can't think of any fiat currency has ever gone 50 years without some sort of currency crisis (at least of the ones we have a good historical record of). Bitcoin aims to be the first one to do that. We'll see if it ever does.

Re: PayPal’s Braintree Embraces Bitcoin, One-Touch Payments

#68

Post by jnbiche » Mon, Sep 08, 2014, 9:01 PM UTC

dangerlibrary wrote: post #47

IkmoIkmo wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> why would anyone want to exchange a reasonable stable national currency for bitcoin? Name me 10 currencies you'd be comfortable holding. It'll probably be very difficult. Fact is, billions use currencies with high inflation rates and with relatively short lifespans. And it's not just places like Zimbabwe that have many problems besides insane inflation the past decade. It's also relatively developed countries like…

But so little of that is exclusive to BTC as opposed to a digital transaction valued in national currency, and almost none of the benefits you list accrue to consumers - they all benefit merchants. - Getting rid of charge back fraud also gets rid of charge backs - an important consumer protection. - I don't need 10 currencies I'd be comfortable holding, but any of these - http://fxtrade.oanda.com/analysis/currency-vo…

>Looking to the future doesn't make me want to transact in BTC right now.

And that's fine. Contrary to popular belief, most core Bitcoiners are not particularly interested in "converting" non-Bitcoin users. There was a big group that bought Bitcoin as a (risky) investment in fall of last year who try to pump it up, but they don't even share many of the core values of the Bitcoin community.

I do want people to be educated about their rejection of Bitcoin (i.e., "because tulips" is just annoying). But it sounds like you are making an education call.

So that's fine. I don't think traditional fiat is at any risk of becoming obsolete in the foreseeable future. We can co-exist side-by-side.

I hope you can afford us the same respect.

PS: I do strongly disagree with "bankless people need banks". Bankless people need to not be exploited, and the kinds of banks that accept people poor/no credit are usually not ethical/moral organizations.

Re: PayPal’s Braintree Embraces Bitcoin, One-Touch Payments

#69

Post by jerguismi » Mon, Sep 08, 2014, 9:01 PM UTC

atmosx wrote: post #53

fredbrown wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A serious question in return: What's wrong with speculation and evading government interference?

Depends, do you believe in 'democracy'? If not, then nothing is wrong with that. If you do, then there's a whole lot of things that can go wrong. ps. The argument that we don't have democracy today in the western world, holds true to an extend but it is as close to democracy as we can get.

I believe most democratic country will vote in favour of bitcoin, eg. letting people speculate with it freely and use it somewhat freely (you still have to pay tax).

Re: PayPal’s Braintree Embraces Bitcoin, One-Touch Payments

#70

Post by mrb » Mon, Sep 08, 2014, 9:02 PM UTC

atmosx wrote: post #48

mrb wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why use Bitcoin? 1. As a consumer, it's fast and cheap. My dad in France can send money, instantly, to me who live in the US. No waiting days for wire transfers. No trip to a local Western Union branch necessary. No exhorbitant fee (worldwide remittance fees average 9%!) I don't even have to bother exchanging the coins with dollars to spend them, because more and more merchants begin to accept Bitcoin. 2. For consume…

1. It's a not a real-world scenario. Especially the part where you don't spend USD becuase more merchants begin to accept BTC , like if you're going to buy bread with BTC. You're not and if you do, you're 1 in 100.000.000.000. 2. Yes, that might work but it's extremely risky and complicated. When if you need to cash out quickly? What if BTC prices goes back to 150 USD because a large BTC holder (an investment bank) d…

1: Yes it is :) The whole experience was eye-opening: coins transferred internationally within tens of minutes, then used for a Newegg purchase. This is a great example of real, concrete utility that I wish more people could experience on their own, before they criticize Bitcoin...

3 & 4: None of your complaints matter to most merchants who accept Bitcoin, because they do so through processors like BitPay/Coinbase. And processors completely remove the risk of volatility: they deposit the dollar amount the merchant requested directly in their bank account.