Stop and Seize • Hacker News Board

Re: Stop and Seize

#151

Post by panarky » Sun, Sep 07, 2014, 5:45 PM UTC

ejr wrote: post #125

DominikR wrote: post #117

Why doesn't your society resist? Parts of your police is now equiped like an army on a battlefield and money can be seized without any reasoning. And then there's NSA spying, torture and drone executions of suspected terrorists (even US citizens) without trial. If someone would have told me 20 years ago, that the US will turn into this, I would have thought that this person must be insane. Now it wouldn't even surpri…

Because resistance is futile. The machinery of government explicitly favours authority and that very authority was given to them willingly by the voting - or non voting - masses. It is the authority that everyone, including the plundered, believe they must have in order to keep them safe. Resistance takes courage and a willingness to lose everything you care about, such as your prideful opinion, free time or an hour…

>> Why doesn't your society resist?

> Because resistance is futile.

Resistance is not futile. We are far bigger and stronger than they are. An organized and determined resistance could dismantle the police state.

But the vast majority of the population is uneducated, uninformed and unmotivated. They're unwilling to turn off TV and talk radio and participate in their community.

And the few who are educated, informed and motivated get discouraged when nobody joins them in their protests, when they're alone in speaking out.

Maybe it needs to get even worse before a critical mass of resistance will set aside their trivial distractions and organize themselves.

Re: Stop and Seize

#152

Post by lsc » Sun, Sep 07, 2014, 5:46 PM UTC

javajosh wrote: post #136

solutionviatech wrote: post #133

--------Can we solve part of this problem through a smartphone app? ----------------- Here are my initial thoughts on how it would work, feel free to comment on better ways to implement it / other features 1) If you get pulled over by a cop, you start up the smart phone app and place the phone in the windshield mount (the mount should have power so the phone battery doesn't die) 2) When the app starts, it immediately…

It's a good idea, but it hinges entirely on streaming at least audio, as it hinges on getting real-time help of a lawyer. It also assumes that there are lots of lawyers out there sitting at a computer and willing to listen to police convos, and step in, for free. Perhaps lawyers would want to be involved as a loss leader for new business? I don't know.

>Perhaps lawyers would want to be involved as a loss leader for new business? I don't know.

There are a bunch of business models. I mean, you could price it like insurance. I pay a monthly fee and you guarantee someone is there to get my ass out of a sling if required.

Heck, you could price it like insurance, too; charge me based on perceived risk, and raise my rates if I actually use it.

I mean, I carry liability insurance against civil suits... Maybe you could talk me into paying for similar insurance against criminal charges?

Re: Stop and Seize

#153

Post by mindslight » Sun, Sep 07, 2014, 5:51 PM UTC

DominikR wrote: post #117

Why doesn't your society resist? Parts of your police is now equiped like an army on a battlefield and money can be seized without any reasoning. And then there's NSA spying, torture and drone executions of suspected terrorists (even US citizens) without trial. If someone would have told me 20 years ago, that the US will turn into this, I would have thought that this person must be insane. Now it wouldn't even surpri…

Because situations like these are quite rare. Even if your best friend was on the receiving end of this tyranny, you still have all the food you can eat in your belly and one of the highest standards of living in history. Plus the whole system has emerged such that it appears that individuals are making free rational choices, so you have to squint very hard to see that they're ultimately being played by the house.

I've long thought that income taxes and the money printing press are a pretty juicy targets. If we could enable people to easily stop paying their "federal" taxes, they would do so out of pure self interest, even if they personally enjoyed viewing the war and oppression porn on their TV. Likewise if we could enable people to default on their unsecured debt consequence-free.

Then bitcoin happened - a perfect vaccine for the lethargic state. What could be better than a currency that looks anonymous at the start, yet will be so easy to control when the apparatus of government/finance finally catches up? And despite the burgeoning alt-coin scene, there can only ever be one reserve currency, and its properties will be the ones you can take as universal - interoperable coins merely create little enclaves that will have the screws repeatedly tightened on them. But even independent freedom-minded people don't bother actually examining the properties of the systems they enthusiastically adopt. So, there went that avenue.

These days, I have no fucking idea. Leaving and leading a peaceful life seems prudent, yet that requires consenting hard to whichever new government one explicitly chooses. And if you don't want to be in an effective satellite of USG, then China and Russia are really the only options. And really the only thing differentiating them from USG is a current lack of global power...

Re: Stop and Seize

#154

Post by agwa » Sun, Sep 07, 2014, 5:52 PM UTC

kohanz wrote: post #106

agwa wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Almost everything involving a bank costs money. Checking accounts have both monthly fees and overdraft fees. Check books cost money. If you're well-off, as virtually all HN commenters are, the fees aren't a big deal or they're waived entirely. If you're poor, as virtually all the victims of roadside asset forfeiture are, the fees are significant so you just don't use banks. That means you end up having to carry large…

I can see how one might come to the assumption that the victims here are "poor", and I wouldn't be surprised if some of them are, but I didn't see any suggestion of that in the article. I would presume that the less well-off victims did not have the legal resources (as these men did) to challenge the police's actions. Of the three victims that were profiled, 2 were business owners, all 3 (presumably) owned vehicles,…

Don't read too much into the fact that they own restaurants. They are probably very small businesses and don't make much money. They're likely sole proprietorships or general partnerships so they aren't a separate legal entity and might not even have bank accounts, so their owners would not be used to dealing with bank transactions. You can actually be much poorer owning a business than having a steady job. And owning a car is a virtual necessity in America, so even the poor have them. Don't confuse poor with destitute.

One should be able to proffer advice without it being victim-blaming, but I do question the utility of offering advice which is difficult for the intended recipient to follow. Also remember we don't hear about the cases where cops don't seize cash, so the risk of carrying cash might be more tolerable than giving up some of your hard-earned money to banks.

Re: Stop and Seize

#155

Post by LyndsySimon » Sun, Sep 07, 2014, 5:57 PM UTC

clarry wrote: post #40

It is sad. Yet people like Gavin Seim and Adam Kokesh get a lot of shit for standing up. "have you seen the video where the guy just keeps repeating, 'Am I being detained? Am I free to go?' what an asshole" And anyone defending those people is instantly labelled a gun freak.

Kokesh is particular is extremely unpopular in the gun community.

Re: Stop and Seize

#156

Post by dllthomas » Sun, Sep 07, 2014, 6:02 PM UTC

baddox wrote: post #118

kohanz wrote: post #55

This is by no means a justification for these seizures, but in reading this I can't help but wonder in what legitimate situations one would actually need to carry such large amounts of cash. Would a money-order or bank-certified check not do the job, or would those be seizable by the police as well? Again, I say this more in a "how can I avoid this type of situation" sense, rather than implying that there was any wro…

Why must the people opposing asset forfeiture come up with a "legitimate situation"? What if I simply want to carry a bunch of cash unrelated to any criminal activity? You might as well say something like "I don't see why anyone would legitimately like death metal music." It's fine to not understand or share people's opinions and preferences, but it's ridiculous to support them being robbed simply because their prefe…

'Why must the people opposing asset forfeiture come up with a "legitimate situation"?'

I read the parent as specifically disclaiming such an implication.

Re: Stop and Seize

#157

Post by DanBC » Sun, Sep 07, 2014, 6:04 PM UTC

solutionviatech wrote: post #133

--------Can we solve part of this problem through a smartphone app? ----------------- Here are my initial thoughts on how it would work, feel free to comment on better ways to implement it / other features 1) If you get pulled over by a cop, you start up the smart phone app and place the phone in the windshield mount (the mount should have power so the phone battery doesn't die) 2) When the app starts, it immediately…

Isn't step 2 illegal in some states? I think, but I could he wrong, that Illinous prevents audio recording without permission.

Re: Stop and Seize

#158

Post by Roboprog » Sun, Sep 07, 2014, 6:06 PM UTC

vfclists wrote: post #56

lettergram wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Judging from the 5 or 6 cops I know personally (neighbors and what not), there's basically nothing you can do if they want something from you. They will lie or provoke you into doing something, even worse, one of the cops I know had a story about how someone said, "no, you cannot search my vehicle." The cop then asked if he wanted to be arrested for resisting arrest, and the guy gave in because he has no idea what hi…

Don't you Americans feel ashamed of your country? Your country is beginning to stink. In many respects it is worse than third world countries. How is this different from some third world country where police stop cars to collect bribes from drivers? Well I'll tell you. In America the whole administration, the judiciary, the legal profession, the government at federal,state and county level are in on it. It seems that…

I like most of my neighbors, and I am proud of what our country aspires to. Alas, the rich and powerful are a huge lot of real assholes. So, yes, we're a bit overdue for another round to take them down a notch or two.

Once in a while, things do happen in the U.S. to piss off the assholes:

* abolished slavery

* gave women the right to vote

* changed tax structure to try to encourage more of a meritocracy (alas, largely rolled back)

* overturned prohibition (again, losing ground due to war on drugs leading to Al Capone 2.0)

(maybe only once every two generations or so, but there you go)

Alas, there's a list of screwups that could parallel the above list, but we're trying...

Re: Stop and Seize

#159

Post by dllthomas » Sun, Sep 07, 2014, 6:06 PM UTC

zorrb wrote: post #45

nagrom wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That last paragraph is fascinating! How did you react to their request to pay cash? How did you count the money to ensure that it was all there - did you sit there and do it when they arrived, or employ someone or did you visit the bank together?

It's not that crazy. A $1000 bundle of 20's is 50 bills. Usually they're wrapped up like that. That's only 15stacks. You'd only really have to count one of the stacks, if you didn't trust them.

"That's only 15stacks."

I read the GP as saying 15.3k bills (i.e. £306k), not £15.3k in £20 bills. In which case, that's 306 stacks.

Re: Stop and Seize

#160

Post by justin66 » Sun, Sep 07, 2014, 6:07 PM UTC

lettergram wrote: post #35

tomohawk wrote: post #6

Near the end, they talk about how police can use psychological pressure to keep someone at the side of the road, not telling them they can leave any time the initial traffic stop is over. They then make 'productive' use of that time. Why you should never talk to police: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc

Judging from the 5 or 6 cops I know personally (neighbors and what not), there's basically nothing you can do if they want something from you. They will lie or provoke you into doing something, even worse, one of the cops I know had a story about how someone said, "no, you cannot search my vehicle." The cop then asked if he wanted to be arrested for resisting arrest, and the guy gave in because he has no idea what hi…

> That being said, always say, "I'm not refusing, but you may not search my car (or persons)"

I can't imagine why you'd want to preface a refusal by stating "I'm not refusing." That just seems willfully obtuse.

The "I don't consent to searches" line seems a lot more appropriate: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kVX6NIPzB0