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Stop and Seize

washingtonpost.com

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Re: Stop and Seize

#51

Post by spodek »

Talk about Orwellian double-speak: they call it "asset forfeiture" and the "Equitable Sharing Program." It's theft and everybody knows it.

> "despite warnings from state and federal authorities that the information could violate privacy and constitutional protections."

It's illegal, pure and simple. No need to sugar coat.

> "Police can seize cash that they find if they have probable cause to suspect that it is related to criminal activity. The seizure happens through a civil action known as asset forfeiture. Police do not need to charge a person with a crime. The burden of proof is then on the driver to show that the cash is not related to a crime by a legal standard known as preponderance of the evidence."

Cops in the story act like the mere existence of a lot of cash is probably cause. This is the opposite of one of the major reasons for law and law enforcement: to protect people's property. We have police so we can feel secure with our property, not to take it so we have to fight back for it.

Re: Stop and Seize

#52

Post by ProAm »

shin_lao wrote: post #49
tehwebguy wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't see a problem with those laws?

Absolutely not. Why would I want to pay in cash? It's neither convenient nor safe.

It's silly to force an unnecessary third party into a business transaction if you dont need to. Money exists for a reason. Cash is king.

Re: Stop and Seize

#54

Post by hga »

zorrb wrote: post #45
nagrom wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That last paragraph is fascinating! How did you react to their request to pay cash? How did you count the money to ensure that it was all there - did you sit there and do it when they arrived, or employ someone or did you visit the bank together?

It's not that crazy. A $1000 bundle of 20's is 50 bills. Usually they're wrapped up like that. That's only 15stacks. You'd only really have to count one of the stacks, if you didn't trust them.

In the US, at least, there are money counting machines in, well, the two bank branches I've been using for a decade. Different banks, one small, one medium of size, in "flyover country" (Joplin, MO). The tellers don't entirely trust them, but they're at minimum useful in getting a double check of amounts. And quite fast, > 10 bills/second.

Re: Stop and Seize

#55

Post by kohanz »

This is by no means a justification for these seizures, but in reading this I can't help but wonder in what legitimate situations one would actually need to carry such large amounts of cash. Would a money-order or bank-certified check not do the job, or would those be seizable by the police as well?

Again, I say this more in a "how can I avoid this type of situation" sense, rather than implying that there was any wrong-doing on the part of the cash carriers.

Re: Stop and Seize

#56

Post by vfclists »

lettergram wrote: post #35
tomohawk wrote: post #6

Near the end, they talk about how police can use psychological pressure to keep someone at the side of the road, not telling them they can leave any time the initial traffic stop is over. They then make 'productive' use of that time. Why you should never talk to police: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc

Judging from the 5 or 6 cops I know personally (neighbors and what not), there's basically nothing you can do if they want something from you. They will lie or provoke you into doing something, even worse, one of the cops I know had a story about how someone said, "no, you cannot search my vehicle." The cop then asked if he wanted to be arrested for resisting arrest, and the guy gave in because he has no idea what hi…

Don't you Americans feel ashamed of your country? Your country is beginning to stink. In many respects it is worse than third world countries.

How is this different from some third world country where police stop cars to collect bribes from drivers?

Well I'll tell you. In America the whole administration, the judiciary, the legal profession, the government at federal,state and county level are in on it. It seems that it succeeds basically because it is too expensive to get justice through the courts, this means that the courts and legal profession are in on it too. In third world countries is just the police and their superiors who get the money, and it generally petty cash.

It looks like it is not terrorists who are going to destroy America after all. Your corrupt governments, banks, judiciary and law enforcement will do it on their own.

A justice system which only the rich can afford is not a justice system in principle or in practice.

The funny thing is that it has been going on for decades and it looks like the Washingon Post just noticed, as though they didn't know about it ages ago.

Re: Stop and Seize

#57

Post by kghose »

kohanz wrote: post #55

This is by no means a justification for these seizures, but in reading this I can't help but wonder in what legitimate situations one would actually need to carry such large amounts of cash. Would a money-order or bank-certified check not do the job, or would those be seizable by the police as well? Again, I say this more in a "how can I avoid this type of situation" sense, rather than implying that there was any wro…

I share your sentiments. I'm more ambivalent about this process than I should be, as an admirer of the checks and balances in our constitution.

I would suspect that the vast majority of such hauls is drug money laundering related. "Normal" folks would be scared of losing such cash or having it stolen. I know I would be petrified at the thought.

However, there are probably a few folks who don't use banks (don't trust 'em or don't use 'em just because) and this is how they buy a house or buy a car or go from one state to another with their possessions.

Now, here's where my ambivalence comes from: do we let the money laundering go because a few of these are false positives? Or do we accept the false positives because it serves the greater good because it catches or causes attrition for money launderers?

I think electronic or check transfers are a rational solution to the problem at hand and so folks should use that.

But I'm still ambivalent. Constitution. Checks and balances.

Re: Stop and Seize

#58

Post by kghose »

vfclists wrote: post #56
lettergram wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Judging from the 5 or 6 cops I know personally (neighbors and what not), there's basically nothing you can do if they want something from you. They will lie or provoke you into doing something, even worse, one of the cops I know had a story about how someone said, "no, you cannot search my vehicle." The cop then asked if he wanted to be arrested for resisting arrest, and the guy gave in because he has no idea what hi…

Don't you Americans feel ashamed of your country? Your country is beginning to stink. In many respects it is worse than third world countries. How is this different from some third world country where police stop cars to collect bribes from drivers? Well I'll tell you. In America the whole administration, the judiciary, the legal profession, the government at federal,state and county level are in on it. It seems that…

Don't come here. It's terrible. Just terrible. Do not apply for a visa here. It's a TRAP!

Re: Stop and Seize

#59

Post by Zigurd »

kohanz wrote: post #55

This is by no means a justification for these seizures, but in reading this I can't help but wonder in what legitimate situations one would actually need to carry such large amounts of cash. Would a money-order or bank-certified check not do the job, or would those be seizable by the police as well? Again, I say this more in a "how can I avoid this type of situation" sense, rather than implying that there was any wro…

If conventional bank instruments were right for all purposes, there would be no interest in alt-currency.

If your money is a number and only you know what it is, it is safe from these kinds of intrusions.

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