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Stop and Seize

washingtonpost.com

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Re: Stop and Seize

#141

Post by kohanz »

silencio wrote: post #105
kohanz wrote: post #55

This is by no means a justification for these seizures, but in reading this I can't help but wonder in what legitimate situations one would actually need to carry such large amounts of cash. Would a money-order or bank-certified check not do the job, or would those be seizable by the police as well? Again, I say this more in a "how can I avoid this type of situation" sense, rather than implying that there was any wro…

I could throw out a few situations that have happened to me in the last few months: - People that gave me cash in an envelope at my wedding, as it's cheaper than getting a money order/bank check if you don't write a regular check that takes forever to clear with large amounts. Don't want to think about how much I was carting back home that night. Hell, replace wedding with any situation - I have had to cart around a…

Thanks for chiming in. Those are all reasonable situations. It sounds like it wouldn't be a common occurrence, but it's definitely possible.

Re: Stop and Seize

#142

Post by r0s »

DominikR wrote: post #117

Why doesn't your society resist? Parts of your police is now equiped like an army on a battlefield and money can be seized without any reasoning. And then there's NSA spying, torture and drone executions of suspected terrorists (even US citizens) without trial. If someone would have told me 20 years ago, that the US will turn into this, I would have thought that this person must be insane. Now it wouldn't even surpri…

I think you answered your own questions. Abuse of power isn't separate from a rational threat.

Re: Stop and Seize

#143

Post by kohanz »

timdev2 wrote: post #135
kohanz wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I certainly don't read it in that way. Carrying that amount of cash is a high-risk venture regardless of whether these questionable seizures are happening or not (e.g. the threat of theft). The other methods mentioned may cost a bit, but that cost goes towards lowering the risk of the transaction. For someone carrying 5-figures worth of cash, how can those costs be prohibitively expensive?

Don't you think it's a bit strange that the biggest risk to your wad of $100 bills, as you drive down the highway, is not criminal robbers, but the police?

Of course it's strange - and wrong.

However, protecting yourself against something like this doesn't have to mean that you think it's a reasonable and justified action. As I explained earlier, for the same reason I generally wouldn't carry this much cash around, I don't leave valuable items inside my locked car, even though it is illegal and unjust for someone to break into it and steal them.

Re: Stop and Seize

#144

Post by vhost- »

MattyRad wrote: post #62

I live in Reno, so with Burning Man recently I saw a disproportionate number of traffic stops off the freeway. The interesting thing about Burning Man, however, is that all vehicles are marked by the tell-tale dust from the Playa. Cops can easily identify which cars should be pulled over. I've seen cops rooting around in dust marked cars while concerned Burners watch. I can't stress enough how important it is to know…

I can back this person up. I lived off Pyramid Highway (Nevada 445), a main route taken to Burning Man, and I would see cars pulled over in front of my house by the police all the time after the event. The traffic stops usually lasted 30 or so minutes and almost like clockwork they were searched.

Even before I was more politically minded, these stops struck me as odd.

Re: Stop and Seize

#145

Post by mindslight »

ejr wrote: post #125
DominikR wrote: post #117

Why doesn't your society resist? Parts of your police is now equiped like an army on a battlefield and money can be seized without any reasoning. And then there's NSA spying, torture and drone executions of suspected terrorists (even US citizens) without trial. If someone would have told me 20 years ago, that the US will turn into this, I would have thought that this person must be insane. Now it wouldn't even surpri…

Because resistance is futile. The machinery of government explicitly favours authority and that very authority was given to them willingly by the voting - or non voting - masses. It is the authority that everyone, including the plundered, believe they must have in order to keep them safe. Resistance takes courage and a willingness to lose everything you care about, such as your prideful opinion, free time or an hour…

The non-voting gave no such authority. They decided that being able to choose whether the assholes had red or blue hats wasn't even worth ten minutes of their time, and opted to not take part in the farce.

On the other hand, the voting (even if they voted Libertarian/Paul) supported the election system itself, and signaled their agreement to be ruled by the inevitable outcome.

Re: Stop and Seize

#146

Post by smutticus »

vfclists wrote: post #56
lettergram wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Judging from the 5 or 6 cops I know personally (neighbors and what not), there's basically nothing you can do if they want something from you. They will lie or provoke you into doing something, even worse, one of the cops I know had a story about how someone said, "no, you cannot search my vehicle." The cop then asked if he wanted to be arrested for resisting arrest, and the guy gave in because he has no idea what hi…

Don't you Americans feel ashamed of your country? Your country is beginning to stink. In many respects it is worse than third world countries. How is this different from some third world country where police stop cars to collect bribes from drivers? Well I'll tell you. In America the whole administration, the judiciary, the legal profession, the government at federal,state and county level are in on it. It seems that…

You're mostly correct in your descriptions of justice in the USA. However, as an USAian I don't feel ashamed, because I don't feel responsible. I just live here. I certainly would like the USA to suck less, but translating that into shame is something that just doesn't happen in my head.

I also don't blame people for the terrible places in which they live either. I don't blame anyone for any repressive regime in which they might live. It's not fair and it's unproductive. I feel my decision to not blame people for any repressive regime they might live under is important to reforming those regimes, and ultimately having sympathy for those regimes' targets.

Re: Stop and Seize

#148

Post by SilasX »

lostcolony wrote: post #10

'“9/11 caused a lot of officers to realize they should be out there looking for those kind of people,” said David Frye, a part-time Nebraska county deputy sheriff who serves as chief instructor at Desert Snow and was operations director of Black Asphalt. “When money is taken from an organization, it hurts them more than when they lose the drugs.”' Wait, what? I was unaware that 9/11 was perpetrated by drug trafficker…

Devil's advocate: I think he meant that the attackers moved money for their operation via large quantities of physical cash (not sure if that's true), and seizing cash is vital for disrupting such organizations.

Not endorsing, just saying what I think he meant.

Re: Stop and Seize

#149

Post by allegory »

nagrom wrote: post #38
allegory wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My boss carried £40k in cash around once a month for a number of years. It was people's pay on the way from the bank to the company. Imagine the consequences of siezing that. In no way should anyone assume anything. That's a bad precedence to set. And as for me, when I sold my house a few years ago, the buyer paid cash (a suitcase of 15,300 £20 notes). I had to take that to the bank and pay it in, which was suprising…

That last paragraph is fascinating! How did you react to their request to pay cash? How did you count the money to ensure that it was all there - did you sit there and do it when they arrived, or employ someone or did you visit the bank together?

It's pretty normal. No surprise.

You weigh the cash with kitchen scales and check it's not paper blanks. That's about it. You have already exchanged contact details and IDs etc so it's all above board plus there is a solicitor present to hand over keys and act as immediate escrow. If there is a miscount of a few notes, ignore it and put it down to an accounting error.

Then you go down the bank, tell them you have a ton of cash to pay in, hand it over and it arrives in your account instantly. You have to provide ID and a receipt for the cash to say where it came from and that is it.

The scary bit was parking up in the local high street with a cash full of cash in your hand at a parking meter paying, then walking to the bank. When you have that sort of cash on you, you look like you have that sort of cash or a dead body in the case. Bank didn't even really think it was surprising.

Pretty depressingly boring.

I watched helicopters arriving in Hatton Garden from an office I worked in once and they were loaded with expensive diamonds and stuff with men in black suits - this was nothing even as remotely interesting or glamorous. The suitacase had no handcuff and was a bog standard samsonite one with dents all over it and the guy who bought it was a retired golf supplies salesperson.

Re: Stop and Seize

#150

Post by AnthonyMouse »

jschwartzi wrote: post #113
kghose wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of money laundering operations is related to terrorist financing. Also, many terrorist organizations finance themselves via drug sales.

Why was this voted down? It strikes me as something requiring some citations or rebuttal, but not a simple downvote.

Because even if it's true it doesn't justify the response. The answer to prohibition funneling money to mobsters is not to crack down on speakeasies, it's to legalize and regulate what people are going to do regardless so that the money goes to farmers and legitimate businesses rather than criminal enterprises.
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