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How to find reliable programmers?

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Re: How to find reliable programmers?

#21

Post by tsally »

californiaguy2 wrote: post #17
tsally wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you keep getting shafted by cheap programming "talent" and keep looking for more, you might just be a fucking idiot. Swearing and making poor extrapolations off of a simple query doesn't make you cool. It actually makes you look like the idiot, not him.

I wasn't trying to be cool, I was answering his question in a straight forward and honest manner. Other people seem to be more interested in trying to blow smoke up his ass talking about interesting problem domains and how money doesn't matter.

I've never seen someone answer a question well while calling the asker a "fucking idiot". Something to keep in mind if you want to answer more questions.

Re: How to find reliable programmers?

#22

Post by steverb »

astrec wrote: post #19
californiaguy2 wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wasn't trying to be cool, I was answering his question in a straight forward and honest manner. Other people seem to be more interested in trying to blow smoke up his ass talking about interesting problem domains and how money doesn't matter.

I was actually replying to you, not him, with an observation drawn from my experience employing a great many programmers of differing ability, including perhaps half a dozen great programmers. In terms of great programmers, money is often subordinate to a great many other things, hence adjunct. Note I didn't say money doesn't matter. Let me illustrate by paraphrasing the conversations I have on occasion. Ordinary Pro…

In my experience Option B above only occurs when leaving a lousy work place. I've done the same thing twice.

But after about 2 years of not making money at the "great place to work" I end up having to move on to something that is also interesting, but actually pays.

But then again, I never accept a counter offer. If I was worth 15k more to you, then why the hell weren't you paying that to start with? That just shows a lack of respect.

Re: How to find reliable programmers?

#23

Post by btilly »

steverb wrote: post #22
astrec wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was actually replying to you, not him, with an observation drawn from my experience employing a great many programmers of differing ability, including perhaps half a dozen great programmers. In terms of great programmers, money is often subordinate to a great many other things, hence adjunct. Note I didn't say money doesn't matter. Let me illustrate by paraphrasing the conversations I have on occasion. Ordinary Pro…

In my experience Option B above only occurs when leaving a lousy work place. I've done the same thing twice. But after about 2 years of not making money at the "great place to work" I end up having to move on to something that is also interesting, but actually pays. But then again, I never accept a counter offer. If I was worth 15k more to you, then why the hell weren't you paying that to start with? That just shows…

Absolutely don't accept counter offers. The main reason they are offered is so that the company can have you leave on their schedule, not yours. Even if this isn't their agenda, you've created a poisoned atmosphere which will make something you're unhappy with be even worse.

Re: How to find reliable programmers?

#26

Post by abyssknight »

1. Don't look for a programmer. Get a developer or an engineer. If they don't know the difference between the two, that's strike one.

2. Use your network. People you know, even friends of a friend, are far more likely to be honest about their skills.

3. If it looks too good to be true, test it. Ask for previous works, ask how they would solve a problem, ask until you're convinced they can do the job.

4. Be clear about what you want done. Draw up mockups, outlines, concept of operations. The less the developer has to ad-lib, the less skilled they have to be to get the job done. I'd venture to say that most of the mixups developers make are due to requirement holes. If you know what you want, you can verify its done the way you want it done too.

Re: How to find reliable programmers?

#27

Post by notauser »

abyssknight wrote: post #26

1. Don't look for a programmer. Get a developer or an engineer. If they don't know the difference between the two, that's strike one. 2. Use your network. People you know, even friends of a friend, are far more likely to be honest about their skills. 3. If it looks too good to be true, test it. Ask for previous works, ask how they would solve a problem, ask until you're convinced they can do the job. 4. Be clear abou…

Even if the programmers you know are too busy to help out, then they can at least help with the search.

Job adverts and assessment questions written and reviewed by technical people look a whole lot different to ones written by the non-technical.

Re: How to find reliable programmers?

#28

Post by tom_b »

Do you already know any hackers/programmers who you consider reliable?

Request a few small code samples from candidates with some short (a few sentences description) of what/who/how the code was designed for and a little bit of context (ie, was the code produced under a 24 hour deadline to fix a critical bug or the result of a six month side project).

Have your existing reliable programmers skim over the submissions, looking for a quick yes/no. Bring in (or video conference, whatever works for you) the yes candidates, and actually treat the interview as a short work session. Brainstorm about your project requirements, technology approaches, talk about challenges you see, ask them for what challenges they see and how they would approach the problem. [EDIT] - oh, make sure to vet the submitted code samples too - if a candidate can't talk coherently about the submitted samples, I would be in "thanks for coming" mode.

Ultimately, I'll echo what most posts here are saying - if some hacker/programmer in your network says good things about a fellow hacker/programmer, you're probably way ahead of the game.

If you're completely unable to evaluate technical candidate skills and have no hacker/programmers in your personal network, I think you have to move back to a suggestion by bjclark - "Hire a reputable company." Maybe you can even pay a reputable software company to vet candidates for you - I've had poor experiences with IT recruiting companies, but I've always been on the other side of the table, trying to find a good technical recruiter to work with.

Re: How to find reliable programmers?

#29

Post by californiaguy2 »

astrec wrote: post #19
californiaguy2 wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wasn't trying to be cool, I was answering his question in a straight forward and honest manner. Other people seem to be more interested in trying to blow smoke up his ass talking about interesting problem domains and how money doesn't matter.

I was actually replying to you, not him, with an observation drawn from my experience employing a great many programmers of differing ability, including perhaps half a dozen great programmers. In terms of great programmers, money is often subordinate to a great many other things, hence adjunct. Note I didn't say money doesn't matter. Let me illustrate by paraphrasing the conversations I have on occasion. Ordinary Pro…

It's really nice that you've found a few spineless coders to do work for you at a reduced rate because you cater to their egos - you are a superior businessman.

In my opinion any "great" programmer will strike out on his own doing exactly what he wants to do before taking a pay cut to work with pet technology X at your shop. Especially if he knows you're on the internet bragging about how you pay them less than what they're really worth.

Re: How to find reliable programmers?

#30

Post by jacquesm »

terrellm wrote: post #8

Many of the good programmers avoid services like eLance because they simply can't compete against the lousy coders who will bid $200 to develop an eBay clone in 7 days. Perhaps you could look in the open source community of your language or technology?

The problem there is not so much the people that would make such bids, but the people that would accept such bids.
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