Etsy CEO to Businesses: If Net Neutrality Perishes, We Will Too • Hacker News Board

Re: Etsy CEO to Businesses: If Net Neutrality Perishes, We Will Too

#81

Post by snowwrestler » Thu, Sep 04, 2014, 5:19 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #58

dragonwriter wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Its odd to talk about net neutrality as something that might "perish" as if it ever existed for more than the couple of years before the FCC's order was struck down. The FCC Order was motivated by a desire to preserve what was seen by many as the status quo ante that was, at the time the order was adopted, perceived to be under threat as big providers began discriminating against certain remote endpoints and applic…

If the status quo ante was in place for decades, why do we need new laws to preserve it now? I don't see the apocalyptic future neutrality advocates envision. I think there is a battle over Netflix because its such an outlier in terms of bandwidth usage, and because their stance on peering was at odds with the accepted understanding of free peering (the "status quo ante"). I don't think the ISP battle with Netflix ca…

Because the status quo is changing.

ISPs are suppressing Netflix not because of traffic asymmetries; the relatively small dollar amounts involved reveal it as an excuse.

Their real concern is that services like Netflix reduce the value of both traditional streamed TV content, and whatever value-add on-demand services that ISPs create and operate. Their worst nightmare is being reduced to dumb pipes, because that's a revenue growth dead-end.

At one point cable "on-demand" was a hot new technology that people were excited about (i.e. willing to pay for). Now people just get a Netflix subscription. Cable companies are not psyched about that.

Re: Etsy CEO to Businesses: If Net Neutrality Perishes, We Will Too

#82

Post by innguest » Thu, Sep 04, 2014, 5:19 PM UTC

mikeash wrote: post #18

KaiserPro wrote: post #4

This is going to draw a lot of negative points here, but its important to note that the issue of net neutrality is an issue because of the lack of competition in the states. If BT (largest ISP in the UK) tried to pull any of the stuff that's been going on, they would have been fined, and users would have left in droves. All the major ISPs here in the UK have multiple CDN node on the edge of their network, simply beca…

The thing is, the problem of net neutrality has a pretty clear solution. You force companies to carry all traffic equally, give no special treatment, etc. It's not perfect, but it works. What's the solution to the problem of a lack of competition?

> You force companies to carry all traffic equally

That is not a solution, it is an intention. The solution is how do you go about "forcing" companies to carry all traffic equally. This is utterly unenforceable and unmeasurable. Also, I have a moral problem with your willingness to "force" someone to do something because of your worldview. That kind of solution does not scale (you either think you could have a monopoly for every market and force them to do what you want, or you think we're all better off through the natural competition for paying customers).

> What's the solution to the problem of a lack of competition?

Stop government from interfering with the market. This solution is much clearer in my opinion. Monopoly comes from the government as it gives particular rights and benefits to this or that corporation. Let corporations fight against each other for the customers' money and you'll be enabling people to choose what they want, by voting with their dollars.

Re: Etsy CEO to Businesses: If Net Neutrality Perishes, We Will Too

#83

Post by zanny » Thu, Sep 04, 2014, 5:25 PM UTC

cornewut wrote: post #32

ianlevesque wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see why that'd draw negative points. Most of us know that's the root issue, where we disagree is in deciding whether we should pretend we will somehow magically acquire more competition with the invisible hand of the market, or whether to give up and regulate some improvements into the failed market we have.

I'm optimistic that we'll find a solution - "community broadband", "shared WiFi" etc. The problems we are seeing are because corporations are already failing as an infrastructure.

It would be much easier to do shared wifi if we weren't trapped on a fraction of the potential wireless bandwidth that is not owned by some big business. Our communication demands are only excelling as time goes on and most metropolitan areas have intense spectrum clutter while we still have the current infrastructure. Imagine trying to route most of the Internet around wirelessly on just the 2.4 and 5ghz bands.

Re: Etsy CEO to Businesses: If Net Neutrality Perishes, We Will Too

#84

Post by mikeash » Thu, Sep 04, 2014, 5:27 PM UTC

innguest wrote: post #82

mikeash wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing is, the problem of net neutrality has a pretty clear solution. You force companies to carry all traffic equally, give no special treatment, etc. It's not perfect, but it works. What's the solution to the problem of a lack of competition?

> You force companies to carry all traffic equally That is not a solution, it is an intention. The solution is how do you go about "forcing" companies to carry all traffic equally. This is utterly unenforceable and unmeasurable. Also, I have a moral problem with your willingness to "force" someone to do something because of your worldview. That kind of solution does not scale (you either think you could have a monopo…

Honest question: why should I care about your moral problem?

Re: Etsy CEO to Businesses: If Net Neutrality Perishes, We Will Too

#85

Post by selmnoo » Thu, Sep 04, 2014, 5:38 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #22

revo13 wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn't describe the current treatment of Netflix by numerous service providers as "Fine". I am on AT&T Uverse and I have to route my Netflix traffic through a private VPN service in order to get HD quality video. Why? Because AT&T is holding me hostage, in the interest of negotiating with Netflix on the other side of the table for extortion fees. I pay for a certain level of access to the Internet. I expect to be…

I don't see what's unfair about ISP's charging Netflix when the ISP's are the ones that spent billions building the networks that made Netflix possible in the first place. Netflix is particularly unsympathetic in my eyes, because its just a middle man. Almost all the real value (the content, and the wires that deliver the content to consumers) is created by other people.

> Netflix is particularly unsympathetic in my eyes, because its just a middle man. Almost all the real value (the content, and the wires that deliver the content to consumers) is created by other people.

That is a very strange way to look at things. The rate you're going, I can call anything pretty much anything. What is an ISP but a middle man -- they only facilitate content going from one end to another? Why is content the real value -- to me, it's totally formulaic, dull, uninspiring trash these days. See? You must explain more rigorously the criteria with which you're judging things here.

I also think your reduction of Netflix technology is peculiar - creating Netflix is no trivial feat. Reliable and user-friendly streaming technology for the masses, if it were so easy, would have been done earlier by other big companies. Netflix is doing a lot of things right, including making their own content of all varieties (children shows, adult shows, etc.) that seems to be received well by folks.

I'm guessing that you value the fact that ISPs have poured a fair bit of money into setting up the infrastructure. It's a good point, but I think ultimately moot. Lots of companies give it their all and still die. The people's will rules at the end of the day, whether to do business with them, whether to shape law to grant them their livelihood. This time, I'm personally okay with how people are judging ISPs.

Re: Etsy CEO to Businesses: If Net Neutrality Perishes, We Will Too

#86

Post by ianlevesque » Thu, Sep 04, 2014, 5:39 PM UTC

zanny wrote: post #78

ianlevesque wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see why that'd draw negative points. Most of us know that's the root issue, where we disagree is in deciding whether we should pretend we will somehow magically acquire more competition with the invisible hand of the market, or whether to give up and regulate some improvements into the failed market we have.

> somehow magically acquire more competition Hard to do when anything and everything involving telecom is decidedly not free market. Just some larger obstructions: * Zoning permits * Getting permission to lay wire, even through private property * Wireless Spectrum Ownership * Zoning permits on broadcast towers * Anti-competitive pressure through corrupt state institutions by incumbents against potential competition *…

Totally agree on all points. Personally I think local-loop unbundling (UK-style) is probably the only viable way to get more competition back.

It's weird to pine for the good ol' days of dialup internet, but when anyone could offer internet services over a common leased infrastructure (the phone system) there was vibrant competition.

Re: Etsy CEO to Businesses: If Net Neutrality Perishes, We Will Too

#87

Post by webXL » Thu, Sep 04, 2014, 5:55 PM UTC

mikeash wrote: post #84

innguest wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You force companies to carry all traffic equally That is not a solution, it is an intention. The solution is how do you go about "forcing" companies to carry all traffic equally. This is utterly unenforceable and unmeasurable. Also, I have a moral problem with your willingness to "force" someone to do something because of your worldview. That kind of solution does not scale (you either think you could have a monopo…

Honest question: why should I care about your moral problem?

I feel the same. Force by any actor for any reason should be a last resort. We have a problem with you promoting it as the "clear solution".

Just think about all the voluntary actions you take throughout the day. Then someone says you must do something different now, or a pay a price. They would need to have a pretty good reason, right?

Re: Etsy CEO to Businesses: If Net Neutrality Perishes, We Will Too

#88

Post by rayiner » Thu, Sep 04, 2014, 5:57 PM UTC

selmnoo wrote: post #85

rayiner wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see what's unfair about ISP's charging Netflix when the ISP's are the ones that spent billions building the networks that made Netflix possible in the first place. Netflix is particularly unsympathetic in my eyes, because its just a middle man. Almost all the real value (the content, and the wires that deliver the content to consumers) is created by other people.

> Netflix is particularly unsympathetic in my eyes, because its just a middle man. Almost all the real value (the content, and the wires that deliver the content to consumers) is created by other people. That is a very strange way to look at things. The rate you're going, I can call anything pretty much anything. What is an ISP but a middle man -- they only facilitate content going from one end to another? Why is con…

There's lots of reliable and user-friendly streaming technology on the internet. Youtube, Hulu, Vimeo, Vudu, BBC, RedBox, Amazon Prime, etc. It's not trivial, sure, but it's much easier than building a modern fiber-coax cable network. As for content, it's valuable because it's hard (and expensive) to make content that appeals to the mass market. I don't think people care whether the streaming technology is Netflix's or Vudu's. I do think they care whether they're watching Warner Bro's "Pacific Rim" versus SyFy's "Atlantic Rim."

You're right that Netflix and Amazon are creating value through their original content businesses. That's kind of orthogonal to this debate. That original content gives them a natural leverage over the ISP's that their role as content middlemen does not.

Re: Etsy CEO to Businesses: If Net Neutrality Perishes, We Will Too

#89

Post by rayiner » Thu, Sep 04, 2014, 6:04 PM UTC

dragonwriter wrote: post #76

rayiner wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The monopoly was granted in return for all sorts of regulations (namely, universal service). The monopoly protection is gone now, so presumably should the regulations be gone. Moreover, how relevant is the pre-1980's POTS infrastructure to this whole debate? How many Netflix customers are on DSL that hasn't been rebuilt since the breakup?

> Moreover, how relevant is the pre-1980's POTS infrastructure to this whole debate? Very > How many Netflix customers are on DSL that hasn't been rebuilt since the breakup? Even if its been rebuilt since the property rights were acquired, the fact that the property rights were acquired when the provider had a monopoly and government backing (and the same thing applies to the cable cos that are ISPs as to the telcos)…

> Even if its been rebuilt since the property rights were acquired

Everywhere I've lived, cable companies don't own the rights of way, but instead pay municipalities or power companies to run wire along public easements or power lines.

Re: Etsy CEO to Businesses: If Net Neutrality Perishes, We Will Too

#90

Post by wmf » Thu, Sep 04, 2014, 6:09 PM UTC

KaiserPro wrote: post #4

This is going to draw a lot of negative points here, but its important to note that the issue of net neutrality is an issue because of the lack of competition in the states. If BT (largest ISP in the UK) tried to pull any of the stuff that's been going on, they would have been fined, and users would have left in droves. All the major ISPs here in the UK have multiple CDN node on the edge of their network, simply beca…

But many countries only have ISP competition because of "wire neutrality" (local loop unbundling), so it's more a matter of picking what layer you're going to regulate as neutral.