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Etsy CEO to Businesses: If Net Neutrality Perishes, We Will Too

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Re: Etsy CEO to Businesses: If Net Neutrality Perishes, We Will Too

#31

Post by at-fates-hands »

mikeash wrote: post #21
viggity wrote: post #7

We haven't had net "neutrality" in the history of the internet and call me crazy, but it seems to have done just fine. "Net Neutrality is just left wing populism run amok" http://blog.erratasec.com/2014/07/eff-lies-about-netneutrali...

I just adore the "government is trying to destroy the free market" rhetoric when it applies to the internet. Do these people not know anything about the history of the internet, or do they merely choose to ignore it?

I find it rather ironic that people who suddenly care about net neutrality actually saw nothing wrong with the Fairness Doctrine.

Just in case: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fairness_Doctrine

Re: Etsy CEO to Businesses: If Net Neutrality Perishes, We Will Too

#32

Post by cornewut »

ianlevesque wrote: post #9
KaiserPro wrote: post #4

This is going to draw a lot of negative points here, but its important to note that the issue of net neutrality is an issue because of the lack of competition in the states. If BT (largest ISP in the UK) tried to pull any of the stuff that's been going on, they would have been fined, and users would have left in droves. All the major ISPs here in the UK have multiple CDN node on the edge of their network, simply beca…

I don't see why that'd draw negative points. Most of us know that's the root issue, where we disagree is in deciding whether we should pretend we will somehow magically acquire more competition with the invisible hand of the market, or whether to give up and regulate some improvements into the failed market we have.

I'm optimistic that we'll find a solution - "community broadband", "shared WiFi" etc.

The problems we are seeing are because corporations are already failing as an infrastructure.

Re: Etsy CEO to Businesses: If Net Neutrality Perishes, We Will Too

#33

Post by ohitsdom »

rayiner wrote: post #22
revo13 wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn't describe the current treatment of Netflix by numerous service providers as "Fine". I am on AT&T Uverse and I have to route my Netflix traffic through a private VPN service in order to get HD quality video. Why? Because AT&T is holding me hostage, in the interest of negotiating with Netflix on the other side of the table for extortion fees. I pay for a certain level of access to the Internet. I expect to be…

I don't see what's unfair about ISP's charging Netflix when the ISP's are the ones that spent billions building the networks that made Netflix possible in the first place. Netflix is particularly unsympathetic in my eyes, because its just a middle man. Almost all the real value (the content, and the wires that deliver the content to consumers) is created by other people.

Consumers are already paying for their internet connection that cost billions for ISPs to roll out. Now ISPs want to charge both parties, and that is wrong.

Do you remember life before Netflix? Incredible you would say they don't bring much value.

Re: Etsy CEO to Businesses: If Net Neutrality Perishes, We Will Too

#34

Post by Shivetya »

KaiserPro wrote: post #4

This is going to draw a lot of negative points here, but its important to note that the issue of net neutrality is an issue because of the lack of competition in the states. If BT (largest ISP in the UK) tried to pull any of the stuff that's been going on, they would have been fined, and users would have left in droves. All the major ISPs here in the UK have multiple CDN node on the edge of their network, simply beca…

my concern is, who is uncompetitive?

Comcast, the bane of reddit's technology sub and elsewhere is the only choice for real high speed internet I have. the phone company? They don't care, they did not and are not offering to increase speeds to compete.

How would transforming this all to utilities solve it? If anything I would never seen any improvement, well unless I lived on the same route as an important politician. Where would the incentive be to ever serve outlying areas with high speed networks? Would changes prevent cherry picking which neighborhoods get access? Are we just going to regulate ourselves mediocrity? Besides lack of will, there will endless money spent on litigation.

Re: Etsy CEO to Businesses: If Net Neutrality Perishes, We Will Too

#35

Post by dragonwriter »

ohitsdom wrote: post #33
rayiner wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see what's unfair about ISP's charging Netflix when the ISP's are the ones that spent billions building the networks that made Netflix possible in the first place. Netflix is particularly unsympathetic in my eyes, because its just a middle man. Almost all the real value (the content, and the wires that deliver the content to consumers) is created by other people.

Consumers are already paying for their internet connection that cost billions for ISPs to roll out. Now ISPs want to charge both parties, and that is wrong. Do you remember life before Netflix? Incredible you would say they don't bring much value.

ISPs don't really want to charge both parties so much as they want to tax Netflix for competing with VOD services that ISPs (who are generally also digital TV providers) want to provide.

Its not really about getting money from Netflix, its about getting rid of Netflix.

Re: Etsy CEO to Businesses: If Net Neutrality Perishes, We Will Too

#36

Post by prepare »

rayiner wrote: post #22
revo13 wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn't describe the current treatment of Netflix by numerous service providers as "Fine". I am on AT&T Uverse and I have to route my Netflix traffic through a private VPN service in order to get HD quality video. Why? Because AT&T is holding me hostage, in the interest of negotiating with Netflix on the other side of the table for extortion fees. I pay for a certain level of access to the Internet. I expect to be…

I don't see what's unfair about ISP's charging Netflix when the ISP's are the ones that spent billions building the networks that made Netflix possible in the first place. Netflix is particularly unsympathetic in my eyes, because its just a middle man. Almost all the real value (the content, and the wires that deliver the content to consumers) is created by other people.

The ISPs didn't spend billions building this network, they were handed billions of dollars from the government to build the network

What if it were Comcast charging Sony extra money to deliver their streaming service for Sony produced content? What if Time Warner wants to charge Hulu extra money to deliver content since it is owned by Comcast? You can dismiss Netflix for not creating content to a small degree (house of cards, arrested development, orange is the new black all produced by Netflix themselves, I would argue they are a content creator as well but thats beside the point) but if you substitute Netflix for someone else, its obvious that this is anticompetitive.

This is hacker news - Can you imagine trying to start a web based company and being forced to pay monthly fees to every single ISP just to get decent speeds to end users? What if Comcast decides it wants to start delivering goods so they jack up prices on instacart's monthly fees Or they want to expand into Taxi services so they throttle uber down to 52 kbps for all their customers

Re: Etsy CEO to Businesses: If Net Neutrality Perishes, We Will Too

#37

Post by KaiserPro »

Shivetya wrote: post #34
KaiserPro wrote: post #4

This is going to draw a lot of negative points here, but its important to note that the issue of net neutrality is an issue because of the lack of competition in the states. If BT (largest ISP in the UK) tried to pull any of the stuff that's been going on, they would have been fined, and users would have left in droves. All the major ISPs here in the UK have multiple CDN node on the edge of their network, simply beca…

my concern is, who is uncompetitive? Comcast, the bane of reddit's technology sub and elsewhere is the only choice for real high speed internet I have. the phone company? They don't care, they did not and are not offering to increase speeds to compete. How would transforming this all to utilities solve it? If anything I would never seen any improvement, well unless I lived on the same route as an important politician…

I'd look at the history of BT in the UK. This is an example of turning complete monopoly into a thriving market.

Re: Etsy CEO to Businesses: If Net Neutrality Perishes, We Will Too

#38

Post by rayiner »

ohitsdom wrote: post #33
rayiner wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see what's unfair about ISP's charging Netflix when the ISP's are the ones that spent billions building the networks that made Netflix possible in the first place. Netflix is particularly unsympathetic in my eyes, because its just a middle man. Almost all the real value (the content, and the wires that deliver the content to consumers) is created by other people.

Consumers are already paying for their internet connection that cost billions for ISPs to roll out. Now ISPs want to charge both parties, and that is wrong. Do you remember life before Netflix? Incredible you would say they don't bring much value.

Two parties benefit when you order a movie on Netflix: you, and Netflix. The company that builds the infrastructure should be able to charge both. It's just how public transit infrastructure is often funded by a combination of user fees and increment taxes on the businesses served by the new road or train line.

Indeed, it's a fairly basic principle of the economics of building infrastructure. A free market underinvests in things like train lines because the builders can only capture one aspect of the positive value created by the infrastructure (the value to the user). However, that leaves a large amount of value to the businesses that users use the infrastructure to get to. If builders can't capture that aspect of value, they'll under invest in such infrastructure. There is a whole body of work on this subject.

Re: Etsy CEO to Businesses: If Net Neutrality Perishes, We Will Too

#39

Post by bcoates »

mikeash wrote: post #21
viggity wrote: post #7

We haven't had net "neutrality" in the history of the internet and call me crazy, but it seems to have done just fine. "Net Neutrality is just left wing populism run amok" http://blog.erratasec.com/2014/07/eff-lies-about-netneutrali...

I just adore the "government is trying to destroy the free market" rhetoric when it applies to the internet. Do these people not know anything about the history of the internet, or do they merely choose to ignore it?

The history of the Internet as the most successful radical deregulation since the abolition of serfdom, or some other history of the Internet?

Re: Etsy CEO to Businesses: If Net Neutrality Perishes, We Will Too

#40

Post by rayiner »

prepare wrote: post #36
rayiner wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see what's unfair about ISP's charging Netflix when the ISP's are the ones that spent billions building the networks that made Netflix possible in the first place. Netflix is particularly unsympathetic in my eyes, because its just a middle man. Almost all the real value (the content, and the wires that deliver the content to consumers) is created by other people.

The ISPs didn't spend billions building this network, they were handed billions of dollars from the government to build the network What if it were Comcast charging Sony extra money to deliver their streaming service for Sony produced content? What if Time Warner wants to charge Hulu extra money to deliver content since it is owned by Comcast? You can dismiss Netflix for not creating content to a small degree (house…

> The ISPs didn't spend billions building this network, they were handed billions of dollars from the government to build the network

This is absolutely false. Almost all the existing cable infrastructure was built with private money.

> Can you imagine trying to start a web based company and being forced to pay monthly fees to every single ISP just to get decent speeds to end users?

So? It's precarious to build a business that depends wholly on someone else's expensive infrastructure. I don't see why web businesses should be different than app businesses in this regard, which have the same problem. If Apple decides to vertically integrate into your market, as an iOS app developer you don't have much recourse.

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