Live data from Hacker News

More Workers Are Claiming ‘Wage Theft’

nytimes.com

51–56 of 56 posts

Re: More Workers Are Claiming ‘Wage Theft’

#51
post #49
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You're arguing for the legalisation of wage theft on the basis that it might disrupt prices. No. I'm arguing that we're currently labeling something as "theft", that might not actually be theft, and that we should thus take a closer look at the issue. > if you have an economy where all the growth goes to the 1% and the 99% see no change Yes and no. Growth (and progress) will go to everyone - Obviously, new technolo…

might not actually be theft I'm happy to call it fraud instead? Agreeing to pay people for a particular time and then failing to pay them is, at the very least, breach of contract. Falsifying records in order to reduce people's pay is definitely fraud. most of this money will either be taken out of circulation It doesn't go in a Scrooge McDuck money bin. It goes straight back into circulation as investments or bank d…

> I'm happy to call it fraud instead? [...] at the very least, breach of contract

Well, downloading youtube videos is a breach of contract too.

You can try to attach all sorts of alternate labels to this, it doesn't change the fundamental issue underneath. I'm not questioning how adequate the semantics of the label are, but rather how adequately our legal framework captures reality here.

Sometimes reality evolves in ways such that the legal framework around it needs to be updated/re-evaluated. There's nothing wrong with that, and it's part of the democratic process.

That's all I'm saying, and I fail to see any formal, moral or legal issue with this.

> It goes straight back into circulation as investments or bank deposits.

Some of the money in bank deposits effectively is in a "money bin". Meanwhile investments on the other hand will (at least most of the time) flow through certain desirable channels that "disposable income" for the most part doesn't.

> Profoundly elitist

Is it? Isn't this the standard economic theory that's being tought to everyone currently?

> We're taking the money off the poor because they might otherwise use it to enjoy themselves

You fail to realize that it's not money that people need/crave but rather goods and services. Taking away money, in order to ensure a steady supply of goods and services, improves the situation for everyone.

> or even something really unproductive like feeding their children or receiving medical treatment!

Having a growing and healthy workforce is in any society's best interest, and a large part of its competitive advantage. Which is in part why children are subsidized by the governement in so many ways. After all, what's point of money if there's no one to exchange it with?

At the same time though we must figure out how to maintain this growth in a sustainable fashion - and I doubt that the optimal solution here is to simply hand people more purchasing power.

--

You, much like the author of the article, seem to fail to understand that there's no perfect answer here. This is an issue that needs fixing, and there seem to generally exist 2 solutions, both of which present a compromise.

While we currently don't have all the data necessary to make that decision, the article clearly seems to prefer one of those 2 alternatives while carelessly neglecting the negative impacts of it.

I on the other hand think that it's worthwile, for everyone, to consider the negative aspects too, before rushing to a conclusion. Do you see anything wrong with this line of reasoning?

Re: More Workers Are Claiming ‘Wage Theft’

#52
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Inflation as long as it does not run out of control is in plenty of peoples interest it devalues the value of debt ask any home owner. Ask a Japanese person about how deflation is bad for the economy / them

> it devalues the value of debt ask any home owner That's hardly a benefit for most, seeing as how they (most likely) (1) actually need their home for living in it, so it doesn't make much difference how highly its priced (2) have the interest rates for their debt bound to the inflation in one way or the other > Ask a Japanese person about how deflation is bad for the economy I was talking about damping inflation. I…

1 and if your priced out of the housing market? what then not everyone has $100k of savings for a deposit.

A lot of the euro zone central banks are/where worried about deflation.

Most people in the west have a substantial amount of debt and so would be impacted severely by deflation.

Re: More Workers Are Claiming ‘Wage Theft’

#53
post #46
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hold on there. Society has already made a judgement that those overtime hours only make society better off when an employer is willing to pay extra for them. Implicit in that is a judgment that neither employers nor employees properly account for the social cost of that overtime (because of short-run vs. long-run considerations, impacts on third parties like the employee's friends and family and so on). Making the ca…

> Evading that judgment by trickery (especially when that can involve tricking the employee) is something very different Yes, agreed. My point was that if it's a wide-spread issue, as the article claims, then employees engaging in those activities probably knew what was expected of them beforehand, and still went ahead with it. If on the other hand it indeed is "trickery", then it's not a wide-spread issue (since tri…

Your argument seems to rely on the assumption that the employees have much of a choice. In theory there's supposed to be a free labor market, but in practice employers hold a much stronger hand than employees. It's hard for employees to vote with their feet when facing the threat of unemployment. Thus their "engaging in those activities" can not exactly be counted as any kind of approval.

Some solutions for this could be stronger unions protecting worker's rights, stronger punishments against employers who take advantage of the weak bargaining position of workers, or providing basic income to tip the balance of power a bit more in the worker's favour.

Re: More Workers Are Claiming ‘Wage Theft’

#54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the U.S., the classification of exempt vs. non-exempt employees is specified by federal law, so companies can't just make that decision on their own. Unfortunately, software developers are legally exempted from having to be paid overtime: "More specifically, the special computer employee exemption applies to workers who apply systems analysis techniques and procedures to determine hardware, software, or system fun…

Of course, if a company wants to pay a software developer for overtime, they're free to do so. I've never heard of that being done, however. I'm going to add this to my list of "Harmful Assumptions That Developers Make". If you assume that what your company does is normal, it's a small leap to classify it in your head as fair. From there, you can go your whole career never expecting something as basic as being paid f…

"I've personally arranged my work contracts such that I've been paid for every hour spent working for a company since around 2001."

Just curious if you managed to negotiate this as a regular employee, or do you work as an independent contractor?

Re: More Workers Are Claiming ‘Wage Theft’

#55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, often if those running a corporation do not have profit maximization as their primary goal, they are voted out by investors. Essentially, maximizing profit becomes the job of the leaders as requested by those invested. There are some exceptions where corporations are profitable by targeting towards environmental things, or other causes, but the bottom line of profit is still there... Especially so with larger c…

I suspect those downvoting gress don't understand what he's saying at all. His claim that "sometimes", thos ein charge aren't only thinking about profit maximization is excluding the case you're describing, where "those in charge" is some combination of investors and the actual execs (specifically, in your example, "those in charge" _are_ in favor of profit maximization). There are a fair few examples in tech where f…

Thanks - that is part of what I'm saying. Also, as another point, 'profit maximization' is predicting the future, and there is a lot of room for different views of what the future will be.

Re: More Workers Are Claiming ‘Wage Theft’

#56
post #36

I'm left wondering how this missing overtime pay continue past the first short paycheck? I'd stop working overtime until it arrived.

So you'd be fired.

Unlikely that would be needed, but its a two-way contract, if either side doesn't meet their obligations, it can be canceled.
Post reply on HN