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More Workers Are Claiming ‘Wage Theft’

nytimes.com

41–50 of 56 posts

Re: More Workers Are Claiming ‘Wage Theft’

#41

i have an applicable anecdote: .. in terse i worked 120hrs in a week, was refused overtime by splitting my duties into three 40hr positions, did research, went to the DOJ, they sat on it for 9 months, then refused and threatened me, i sent the DOJ lawyer's secretary my research, she went over his head, and i got the pay due to me .. i lost a job in nyc, at the time of employment i was 'wearing many hats' which really…

This story deserves some editing and polishing to be published as a blog post/article.

Re: More Workers Are Claiming ‘Wage Theft’

#42
post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not really - a corporation is a group of people. Sometimes those in control of it have no goal other than profit maximization, but by no means always.

I know this isn't the point you were addressing, but according to the law in the US the corporation is sometimes a person. Everyone's favourite source: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate_personhood In relation to other places, see The City of London. There is an incredible situation with corporations there where they get to vote as if they were a number of people (equal to employee numbers). It's surreal.

But they city has no real political power its one of those old hangovers in the uk political system - like when university graduates got two vote's - which was only abolished after ww2

Re: More Workers Are Claiming ‘Wage Theft’

#43
post #34
post #17

> This has spread to multiple industries across many sectors. It’s affected not just minimum-wage workers, but also middle-class workers. I have no idea how much of an issue this is and what the real-world implications for the individuals are, but if it has become a systematic phenomenon, then maybe it's worth rethinking the rules? If it really is as wide-spread as they say, then having everyone play by the book migh…

might result in a redistribution of large amounts of money, thus impacting inflation .. which I guess is hardly in anyone's interest This is the most plutocratic self-serving thing I've seen on HN today. You're arguing for the legalisation of wage theft on the basis that it might disrupt prices. Yes, if you have an economy where all the growth goes to the 1% and the 99% see no change, that might be good for price sta…

Inflation as long as it does not run out of control is in plenty of peoples interest it devalues the value of debt ask any home owner.

Ask a Japanese person about how deflation is bad for the economy / them

Re: More Workers Are Claiming ‘Wage Theft’

#44
Gabriella . I can see what your saying... Adam `s postlng is impressive... on tuesday I got a gorgeous Maserati from having made $4435 this-past/five weeks and would you believe, 10k this past month . without a question it is the most comfortable work I've ever done . I began this four months/ago and pretty much straight away startad bringin in minimum $71 per hour . Read Full Report >>>>>>>> www.jobsfish.com

Re: More Workers Are Claiming ‘Wage Theft’

#45
post #26
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you propose? Making the rules say it's OK for employers to exploit their workers?

> What do you propose? For starters, rational discourse. I don't see much point in being cynical. If there is demand for those overtime hours and people willing to supply them .. and society as a whole is better off for it in the end, but our rules prohibit it, then clearly there's adequate reason to question the rules. We need to conduct research on how both alternatives - i.e. either enforcing the rules or changing…

Hold on there.

Society has already made a judgement that those overtime hours only make society better off when an employer is willing to pay extra for them. Implicit in that is a judgment that neither employers nor employees properly account for the social cost of that overtime (because of short-run vs. long-run considerations, impacts on third parties like the employee's friends and family and so on).

Making the case that the social costs have changed and revisiting that judgment democratically is one thing. Evading that judgment by trickery (especially when that can involve tricking the employee) is something very different - cheating the system by shifting the social costs of overtime where they do not belong.

Re: More Workers Are Claiming ‘Wage Theft’

#46
post #45
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What do you propose? For starters, rational discourse. I don't see much point in being cynical. If there is demand for those overtime hours and people willing to supply them .. and society as a whole is better off for it in the end, but our rules prohibit it, then clearly there's adequate reason to question the rules. We need to conduct research on how both alternatives - i.e. either enforcing the rules or changing…

Hold on there. Society has already made a judgement that those overtime hours only make society better off when an employer is willing to pay extra for them. Implicit in that is a judgment that neither employers nor employees properly account for the social cost of that overtime (because of short-run vs. long-run considerations, impacts on third parties like the employee's friends and family and so on). Making the ca…

> Evading that judgment by trickery (especially when that can involve tricking the employee) is something very different

Yes, agreed.

My point was that if it's a wide-spread issue, as the article claims, then employees engaging in those activities probably knew what was expected of them beforehand, and still went ahead with it.

If on the other hand it indeed is "trickery", then it's not a wide-spread issue (since tricking people relies on the practice being uncommon enough to not be anticipated), and is thus something that can be sensibly dealt with in courts on a case-by-case basis.

Re: More Workers Are Claiming ‘Wage Theft’

#47

i have an applicable anecdote: .. in terse i worked 120hrs in a week, was refused overtime by splitting my duties into three 40hr positions, did research, went to the DOJ, they sat on it for 9 months, then refused and threatened me, i sent the DOJ lawyer's secretary my research, she went over his head, and i got the pay due to me .. i lost a job in nyc, at the time of employment i was 'wearing many hats' which really…

Are you still in London?

i lived in london many times in the last 8 years

right now, i'm in san francisco

Re: More Workers Are Claiming ‘Wage Theft’

#48
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

might result in a redistribution of large amounts of money, thus impacting inflation .. which I guess is hardly in anyone's interest This is the most plutocratic self-serving thing I've seen on HN today. You're arguing for the legalisation of wage theft on the basis that it might disrupt prices. Yes, if you have an economy where all the growth goes to the 1% and the 99% see no change, that might be good for price sta…

Inflation as long as it does not run out of control is in plenty of peoples interest it devalues the value of debt ask any home owner. Ask a Japanese person about how deflation is bad for the economy / them

> it devalues the value of debt ask any home owner

That's hardly a benefit for most, seeing as how they (most likely)

(1) actually need their home for living in it, so it doesn't make much difference how highly its priced

(2) have the interest rates for their debt bound to the inflation in one way or the other

> Ask a Japanese person about how deflation is bad for the economy

I was talking about damping inflation. I doubt deflation is a serious issue "in the West", given our culture of spending.

Also, as devastating as the real-world effects may have been in the past, all deflation means is that

(1) we need to find more worthwile activities to invest our efforts in. Imho this would be a much needed reality check in some sectors .. but like I said, I doubt it'll be happening any time soon.

(2) we're on our way towards post-scarcity and can start taking things easier from now on. (If only..)

Re: More Workers Are Claiming ‘Wage Theft’

#49
post #40
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

might result in a redistribution of large amounts of money, thus impacting inflation .. which I guess is hardly in anyone's interest This is the most plutocratic self-serving thing I've seen on HN today. You're arguing for the legalisation of wage theft on the basis that it might disrupt prices. Yes, if you have an economy where all the growth goes to the 1% and the 99% see no change, that might be good for price sta…

> You're arguing for the legalisation of wage theft on the basis that it might disrupt prices. No. I'm arguing that we're currently labeling something as "theft", that might not actually be theft, and that we should thus take a closer look at the issue. > if you have an economy where all the growth goes to the 1% and the 99% see no change Yes and no. Growth (and progress) will go to everyone - Obviously, new technolo…

might not actually be theft

I'm happy to call it fraud instead? Agreeing to pay people for a particular time and then failing to pay them is, at the very least, breach of contract. Falsifying records in order to reduce people's pay is definitely fraud.

most of this money will either be taken out of circulation

It doesn't go in a Scrooge McDuck money bin. It goes straight back into circulation as investments or bank deposits.

handled by professionals (and thus put to good use)

Profoundly elitist. We're taking the money off the poor because they might otherwise use it to enjoy themselves or even something really unproductive like feeding their children or receiving medical treatment!

Re: More Workers Are Claiming ‘Wage Theft’

#50

i have an applicable anecdote: .. in terse i worked 120hrs in a week, was refused overtime by splitting my duties into three 40hr positions, did research, went to the DOJ, they sat on it for 9 months, then refused and threatened me, i sent the DOJ lawyer's secretary my research, she went over his head, and i got the pay due to me .. i lost a job in nyc, at the time of employment i was 'wearing many hats' which really…

I hope you are doing fine now.

i'm guessing you are referring to the homeless aspect of my well being..

without sounding too much like an a hole: i was fine then too;

this was 8 years ago, i was traveling in france, i ran out of money but had a return flight, i landed in nyc with 40$ and i had a decision to make: do i call someone for some help or do i make it work?; i chose to make it work

when i was in india my understanding of poverty shifted dramatically, i even to this day say that the states are devoid of any poverty

the exploitation of individuals with less in the states seems hinged on flaws in our general system

i wanted to help both poverty of the world, and those disenchanted and alienated by the country that let me stay the longest without a visa.. my birthplace

but, i am really bad at helping other people,

what i am really good at is helping myself

institutionally or bureaucratically offering my services to provide aide often calls for me to perform tasks for goals that i already think are futile, or refuse to try new things due to established procedures and participant seniority and frustrate me to stop trying to help others, and individual help is time and emotionally consuming, only helps a single individual ignoring others' suffering, and ultimately feels manipulative

but! if i become homeless, if i am without a place to live and without a cent to my name, i was confident i could crawl my way out of that caste, what i found was living in public spaces made sense under certain circumstances, the first time around i spent 4 months in new york's underbelly, then a year later i came back for another 4 because i knew how to play the game.. and i could play it really well

one thing i learned in my time living on the streets of many cities around the world, and meeting and living alongside many people doing the same was that homelessness is a choice

i know this is an unpopular sentiment.. the best of the worst rationalisations these days seems to be 'mental illness', people without a clue love to say 'homelessness is a mental illness issue', somehow people have convinced themselves that there is compassion in undermining other peoples' choices

now, to say 'it is a choice' is a pithy simplification of a vastly complex idea: we need to determine what are bad choices both for individuals and for our collective happiness and comfort, and how to interact with people making those bad choices

we need to determine why the choice is being made, honestly a lot of the people i got to know or chose to avoid were just doing what they wanted to be doing and either our dominant society rejected them or they saw it as abhorrent and opted out of it: i need to do your work for you for a pittance of your benefiting off of said work in order to pay a monthly fee for a stronger box with a lock on it so i can collect things in it free of constant fear of it being taken from me when my guard is down? i think i'll just accept the consequences of living without employment then, those seem more manageable to me;

but i love being able to have a shower, it is really difficult to enjoy the rain when you are without a shower and dry clothes to go home to and i love to enjoy the rain

so that became my baseline: getting people jobs they already knew they were uninterested in having is ridiculous, but creating a culture where anyone can take a warm shower and get warm clothes when they are needed, now that is something.. so i dedicate my free time to dreaming up my favourite way to achieve this

o, and food, everyone needs food food should be free.. "When can I go into the supermarket and buy what I need with my good looks?"(i) food will be free in the future

(i) http://www.poetryarchive.org/poem/america

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