I Ghostwrite Chinese Students' Ivy League Admissions Essays • Hacker News Board

Re: I Ghostwrite Chinese Students' Ivy League Admissions Essays

#71

Post by rayiner » Mon, Sep 01, 2014, 12:44 AM UTC

jiggy2011 wrote: post #70

rayiner wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> With the boom of the "college consultants" industry, professionals are essentially "forging" entire high school careers on behalf of their clients - telling them what classes to take, which clubs to join, where and how many hours they should volunteer, etc. I don't really get this perspective. If colleges are going to base admissions on amorphous things like what clubs someone joined, or what organizations they vol…

Is the student who hires a consultant to tell them what classes to take, or what clubs to join, or what organizations to volunteer for, and then follows through with those, less deserving of a spot than someone that happens to randomly fall upon the right combination of activities? Yes, I think that's the general idea. Ideally the criteria are kept secret of course. It's the same as picking employees who do open sour…

I think that's stupid, and gives an unfair advantage to people from more educated and/or connected backgrounds. Instead of blaming admissions consultants, I'd blame the colleges using these bullshit proxy metrics.

Re: I Ghostwrite Chinese Students' Ivy League Admissions Essays

#72

Post by WildUtah » Mon, Sep 01, 2014, 1:00 AM UTC

mathetic wrote: post #25

asdfologist wrote: post #2

First of all - wow, what a talented writer. No wonder her clients have done so well. Forgery of college admissions essays is rampant not just in China but also in the US (and I suspect in many other places), but actually the problem is really much worse than that. With the boom of the "college consultants" industry, professionals are essentially "forging" entire high school careers on behalf of their clients - tellin…

Exactly but I see nothing wrong with this. If universities are willing to accept students not based on merit but on a touching story, then they had it coming. People who admit one to these universities in general are not alumni of that school, did not go through the same experience and are not experts in the subject one wants to study. It is ludicrous to expect them to differentiate good candidates from bad ones. Als…

Oxford and Cambridge professors are conducting multiple technical interviews with each candidate for centuries for both domestic and international students.

And today C and O admit based on comprehensive objective tests just like almost all of the world's elite universities outside the USA.

US universities could avail themselves of that system, if their priority were academic quality or equality and fairness.

Re: I Ghostwrite Chinese Students' Ivy League Admissions Essays

#73

Post by jiggy2011 » Mon, Sep 01, 2014, 1:01 AM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #71

jiggy2011 wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is the student who hires a consultant to tell them what classes to take, or what clubs to join, or what organizations to volunteer for, and then follows through with those, less deserving of a spot than someone that happens to randomly fall upon the right combination of activities? Yes, I think that's the general idea. Ideally the criteria are kept secret of course. It's the same as picking employees who do open sour…

I think that's stupid, and gives an unfair advantage to people from more educated and/or connected backgrounds. Instead of blaming admissions consultants, I'd blame the colleges using these bullshit proxy metrics.

But that's really the case either way, it's possible that having known metrics gives an even greater advantage to those who are economically well off as violin tuition gets more expensive due to rising demand.

The most equitable solution would be to base admissions purely on grades but that isn't possible when you have grade inflation, because more people get straight As than there are places at top universities.

Re: I Ghostwrite Chinese Students' Ivy League Admissions Essays

#74

Post by danielweber » Mon, Sep 01, 2014, 1:10 AM UTC

jurassic wrote: post #34

Really interesting piece. In my post-college lull, I was once in a major financial bind and ended up doing a brief stint as an academic ghostwriter. I wrote term papers, not admission essays, for a ghostwriting service over a period of about 2 months. The work was easy and the money was good. I felt pretty guilty doing the work at first, but I quickly realized that most of the assignments were so banal that I don't t…

First, thanks for bringing this perspective, even if unpopular.

Why are college courses giving "major" assignments that can reasonably be completed in 5-10 hours by a smart person with no training in the field?

Without knowing the assignment, it's because the college students are still growing up. A lot of things that are hard for high school and college students are easy for smart adults. Part of that is because the college students haven't ever done them before and don't know what they can do.

Or maybe the assignments are just crap. That could 100% be true.

Re: I Ghostwrite Chinese Students' Ivy League Admissions Essays

#75

Post by llllllllllll » Mon, Sep 01, 2014, 1:13 AM UTC

jurassic wrote: post #34

Really interesting piece. In my post-college lull, I was once in a major financial bind and ended up doing a brief stint as an academic ghostwriter. I wrote term papers, not admission essays, for a ghostwriting service over a period of about 2 months. The work was easy and the money was good. I felt pretty guilty doing the work at first, but I quickly realized that most of the assignments were so banal that I don't t…

I'm sure you're aware of this, but the high demand from foreign language students is likely because US colleges often have a foreign language requirement. At my college it was four semesters, which is pretty common.

The effect is that you get a slew of totally unmotivated, clueless students who slow things down for everyone else. Spanish especially, since it's the "easy" foreign language for English speakers, was overloaded with students who had no desire to be there, at least until you made it to the 5th semester and beyond classes.

Re: I Ghostwrite Chinese Students' Ivy League Admissions Essays

#76

Post by lotophage » Mon, Sep 01, 2014, 1:13 AM UTC

jurassic wrote: post #34

Really interesting piece. In my post-college lull, I was once in a major financial bind and ended up doing a brief stint as an academic ghostwriter. I wrote term papers, not admission essays, for a ghostwriting service over a period of about 2 months. The work was easy and the money was good. I felt pretty guilty doing the work at first, but I quickly realized that most of the assignments were so banal that I don't t…

> I would like to see fluffy degree programs ended, so that legitimate work in the humanities can continue without anyone wasting time...

> ... the heaviest users of the service were education majors..

Aren't you contributing to the fluffy education problem by creating fluffy educators?

Re: I Ghostwrite Chinese Students' Ivy League Admissions Essays

#77

Post by Yardlink » Mon, Sep 01, 2014, 1:24 AM UTC

I used to work for a company writing application essays for Chinese students. I didn't write them myself but I have no moral objection. The requirements are bizarre - effectively "tell us what you know will make us like you but hide the fact that you know we want to hear it".

Should you tell the truth "I love CS and play it in all my spare time, I'm obsessed with it and usually don't get enough sleep for school because I'm so committed staying up late at night shooting people" or tell a story about an incident at the beach that makes it look like you have amazing management skills? Who knows!

University selection is ridiculous and I support any attempt to bring fairness to it like these services.

Re: I Ghostwrite Chinese Students' Ivy League Admissions Essays

#78

Post by kansface » Mon, Sep 01, 2014, 1:30 AM UTC

Yardlink wrote: post #77

I used to work for a company writing application essays for Chinese students. I didn't write them myself but I have no moral objection. The requirements are bizarre - effectively "tell us what you know will make us like you but hide the fact that you know we want to hear it". Should you tell the truth "I love CS and play it in all my spare time, I'm obsessed with it and usually don't get enough sleep for school becau…

Fairness is not concomitant to a spare 2K$.

Re: I Ghostwrite Chinese Students' Ivy League Admissions Essays

#79

Post by MereInterest » Mon, Sep 01, 2014, 1:31 AM UTC

jfoutz wrote: post #57

WoodenChair wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really appreciate your honesty and the knowledge you shared here, but I fear your rationalizations about why what you did is not unethical are just that - rationalizations. It's wrong to do others work for them and let them represent it as their own, no matter how mundane the subject matter. It lets them receive qualifications that they didn't earn and others who want those qualifications in competition with them,…

Security is up to the grantor of the certification. It really can't be any other way. Asking students to be ethical is worthwhile, but it's sort of like the pull-out method of contraception - just not very effective.

You are mistaking security and ethics. Yes, it is up to the university to make sure that people aren't cheating. No, that it no way makes it ethical to cheat.

Re: I Ghostwrite Chinese Students' Ivy League Admissions Essays

#80

Post by morgante » Mon, Sep 01, 2014, 1:35 AM UTC

llllllllllll wrote: post #75

jurassic wrote: post #34

Really interesting piece. In my post-college lull, I was once in a major financial bind and ended up doing a brief stint as an academic ghostwriter. I wrote term papers, not admission essays, for a ghostwriting service over a period of about 2 months. The work was easy and the money was good. I felt pretty guilty doing the work at first, but I quickly realized that most of the assignments were so banal that I don't t…

I'm sure you're aware of this, but the high demand from foreign language students is likely because US colleges often have a foreign language requirement. At my college it was four semesters, which is pretty common. The effect is that you get a slew of totally unmotivated, clueless students who slow things down for everyone else. Spanish especially, since it's the "easy" foreign language for English speakers, was ove…

> I'm sure you're aware of this, but the high demand from foreign language students is likely because US colleges often have a foreign language requirement.

I read that to mean foreign nationals (non-native English speakers), not students studying foreign languages (which rarely have long essays for introductory courses). That people with poor English skills would use ghostwriting services (like the article author's clients) seems pretty intuitive.