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Why doctors are sick of their profession

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Re: Why doctors are sick of their profession

#141
post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am also an MD, and I find you embarrassing. The core of medicine is service to others. Granted, we could do a better job of advocating for ourselves, but you are doing it wrong.

Its not clear how anyone can make someone else embarrassed for views they don't share. I'd have more respect for you if you called me an idiot for my views but your embarrassment at my claims makes me think that you actually know the truth, but lack the courage to rethink it. > we [doctors] could do a better job advocating for ourselves... Its all just negotiating the terms of your slavery if you agree that people ha…

> I'd have more respect for you if you called me an idiot for my views

Well, since you're inviting personal criticism, then, and suggesting it might engender more respect for critics and their opposing points than a doctor weighing in on your position...

It'd seem that you suffer from all-or-nothing, black-and-white thinking -- that when confronted with tension between two ideals you don't know what to do except pick a single winner and declare that any attempt to balance tension between the two as an unacceptable compromise against the value you've judged higher.

I'd also guess that if you think that government services are theft, you might have built a philosophy around property rights without ever having thought much about property itself, which is about a real, universal, and solid as the cartesian plane at best.

Finally (and perhaps most specifically and pertinently), while I'd be willing to believe that you may be familiar with the regulatory aspects that directly affect your professional life (and invite you to express your confidence about this by drawing attention to the specific market vacuum you've left behind in case someone else doesn't share your opinion), your summary doesn't seem to me to be a particularly accurate description of the state of values/laws when it comes to health care in the US.

For example, if you're talking about EMTALA as the decades-old invocation of care rights (and I'm not sure what else you would be talking about), there a number of key caveats that I'd think would prevent any sensible person from characterizing it as slavery, perhaps most notably that (a) there's only obligation incurred for institutions that choose to accept medicare payments AND (b) it doesn't compel anyone to into going into providing emergency service in the first place, it compels those who choose to provide emergency service (and accepting medicare) to provide emergency service without regard to ability to pay.

If someone can choose to avoid providing a specific service (or stop when they like), and only incurs obligations by making an agreement with a specific payor, they're not a slave, and it's possibly more disingenuous to invoke the term in this context than it is to invoke the term "theft" when discussing taxes and government services.

> Its all just negotiating the terms of your slavery if you agree that people have the "right" to health care.

People do sometimes speak of the struggle many face for access to health care in terms of rights. Mostly what I think they're trying to express (sometimes poorly) is that they feel the value of giving every member of a society some minimum level of access to health care services is a good on par with the value of property rights, possibly higher. And as such it's worth some limited abridgment of the later.

There are some good arguments for this, even when starting with personal liberty/property rights as a high value: liberty and property don't mean much in a context where life and health aren't protected, and the related risk management and insurance is an area where incentives are screwy enough markets aren't great at the job, which is one reason you see people like Hayek support at least the idea of social insurance.

Re: Why doctors are sick of their profession

#142
post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>when they agreed that people had a right to medical services ... It was self-imposed slavery... We've had rights to medical services in most of the developed world outside the US for decades. Doctors have high salaries and reasonable conditions for the most part. Funny version of slavery.

The use of the term "slavery" here is pretty standard rhetoric used for emphasis by the American libertarian movement; its use descends from the vocabulary developed by the body of anti-Socialist thinkers in the early to mid-20th century. A more sophisticated rhetorician would argue that the various bodies of your society (those who pay for the universal medical services via taxation, those who partake of the medical…

Wow. It absolutely astonishes me that someone would downvote this. Since when is clarifying a use of a term, then demonstrating what a contrary point of view would look like - without once stating my own personal opinion - downvote-worthy?

This is just disgusting behaviour to see on Hacker News.

Re: Why doctors are sick of their profession

#143
post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I manage IT for ten dental offices, Hippa isn't that hard (full disk encryption isn't even mandatory). You must not be very good at what you do, and its probably why you are so angry.

You seem to like to make a lot of unwarranted assumptions about my skills and emotional state. Who said I was angry? I made a decision and moved on. I don't waste time on idiocy I can't change. There is plenty of non-medical IT work as I am sure you know, I just didn't want to take on the risks. FYI, you might want to look into the laws which are just now starting to be enforced. If you are in IT then you are now a c…

Rather than looking into the laws yourself, you should have consulted a lawyer. You would have learned how the rules actually apply to service providers of health institutions instead of developing a serious misunderstanding of how HIPPA works.

Re: Why doctors are sick of their profession

#144
post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am also an MD, and I find you embarrassing. The core of medicine is service to others. Granted, we could do a better job of advocating for ourselves, but you are doing it wrong.

Its not clear how anyone can make someone else embarrassed for views they don't share. I'd have more respect for you if you called me an idiot for my views but your embarrassment at my claims makes me think that you actually know the truth, but lack the courage to rethink it. > we [doctors] could do a better job advocating for ourselves... Its all just negotiating the terms of your slavery if you agree that people ha…

Its all just negotiating the terms of your slavery if you agree that people have the "right" to health care.

Slavery is, by definition, not negotiated. It is a condition imposed upon someone without their choice. There are still actual slaves in this world, and none of them negotiated the terms of their slavery.

Re: Why doctors are sick of their profession

#145
post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Window dressing, as I said. And how long will this system last when the doctors are extremely unhappy now and things will get worse as the govt takes more control away from the doctors? It should give you some concern that 2mur's sentiment is common today among doctors; "There is no chance I would do it again". Do you think doctors can be replaced by govt bureaucrats following the Code of Federal Regulations? Good lu…

All socialist interventions weaken the marketplace and require further such intervention. They all require progressive restrictions of liberty and the logical end result in each and every case, no matter how benign the beginnings, must (as you have suggested) be outright slavery.

Your comment could be the perfect solution to a homework problem in a critical thinking class:

Give an example of a slippery slope argument in economics, social science or politics.

Re: Why doctors are sick of their profession

#146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The use of the term "slavery" here is pretty standard rhetoric used for emphasis by the American libertarian movement; its use descends from the vocabulary developed by the body of anti-Socialist thinkers in the early to mid-20th century. A more sophisticated rhetorician would argue that the various bodies of your society (those who pay for the universal medical services via taxation, those who partake of the medical…

Wow. It absolutely astonishes me that someone would downvote this. Since when is clarifying a use of a term, then demonstrating what a contrary point of view would look like - without once stating my own personal opinion - downvote-worthy? This is just disgusting behaviour to see on Hacker News.

Sometimes downvotes are accidental, especially on phones.

Re: Why doctors are sick of their profession

#147
post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You seem to like to make a lot of unwarranted assumptions about my skills and emotional state. Who said I was angry? I made a decision and moved on. I don't waste time on idiocy I can't change. There is plenty of non-medical IT work as I am sure you know, I just didn't want to take on the risks. FYI, you might want to look into the laws which are just now starting to be enforced. If you are in IT then you are now a c…

Rather than looking into the laws yourself, you should have consulted a lawyer. You would have learned how the rules actually apply to service providers of health institutions instead of developing a serious misunderstanding of how HIPPA works.

As other others have pointed out HIPPA is an old law. But what most people do not realize is that it has not been enforced (for 10 years?) because no bureaucracy had responsibility for enforcement. This has led to a high level of complacency regarding the seriousness of the HIPPA law. HIPPA now has an "owner" (i.e. enforcer) at the HHS in the Dept. of Civil Rights and they are spooling up to start cracking down and auditing and fining healthcare providers and their business associates. This process has already begun so things are about to change.

For years, under advice of my lawyer, I operated under a signed contract with all my healthcare customers that included a disclaimer that HIPPA was not my responsibility and I had no HIPPA responsibilities. Recent decisions by the DCR have ruled such disclaimers invalid and defined Business Associates as providers to healthcare providers that have access to PHI and thus to which the HIPPA regulations apply directly. My lawyer said he can no longer limit my liability or responsibility for HIPPA with a disclaimer and advised me to implement full HIPPA compliant policies, procedures and documentation or drop my healthcare customers.

Please feel free to ignore reality if you want to get blind-sided by this.

Re: Why doctors are sick of their profession

#148
post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its not clear how anyone can make someone else embarrassed for views they don't share. I'd have more respect for you if you called me an idiot for my views but your embarrassment at my claims makes me think that you actually know the truth, but lack the courage to rethink it. > we [doctors] could do a better job advocating for ourselves... Its all just negotiating the terms of your slavery if you agree that people ha…

> I'd have more respect for you if you called me an idiot for my views Well, since you're inviting personal criticism, then, and suggesting it might engender more respect for critics and their opposing points than a doctor weighing in on your position... It'd seem that you suffer from all-or-nothing, black-and-white thinking -- that when confronted with tension between two ideals you don't know what to do except pick…

>...than a doctor weighing in on your position...

As smart as they are, the doctors are most clueless regarding the moral issues involved. There is another MD in this thread claiming the essence of medicine is service to others but I think 5 minutes of thought can dismiss that non-sense, even from a doctor.

> It'd seem that you suffer from all-or-nothing, black-and-white thinking --

I don't consider this a flaw in my position. Its called Aristotelian logic either/or, maybe you have heard of it. There is no gray in reality it is in your head.

> that when confronted with tension between two ideals you don't know what to do except pick a single winner and declare that any attempt to balance tension between the two as an unacceptable compromise against the value you've judged higher.

Name those ideals, please. If you boil it down it is not a conflict between two good principle or ideals (this does happen but not in this case) but between a bad one and a good one. Are the doctors free to withdraw their service? Its a simple question. If you believe that medical service is a right doesn't that mean that medical service is an obligation of the doctors to provide? Who, other than a slave, has an obligation to provide service? If you force the doctors to follow the Code of Federal Regulations and limit their salaries are they still really doctors in the proper meaning or are they bureaucrats? Do the good doctors stay under such a system or do they move on? Don't be fooled by nomenclature.

> Finally (and perhaps most specifically and pertinently), while I'd be willing to believe that you may be familiar with the regulatory aspects that directly affect your professional life (and invite you to express your confidence about this by drawing attention to the specific market vacuum you've left behind in case someone else doesn't share your opinion), your summary doesn't seem to me to be a particularly accurate description of the state of values/laws when it comes to health care in the US.

AMA good enough for you? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8248017

HIPPA is Coming!, HIPPA is Coming!, HIPPA is Coming! https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8247991 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8248417 You have been warned.

> People do sometimes speak of the struggle many face for access to health care in terms of rights.

Words have real meaning and aren't rubber terms to justify anything people need or want. So where do you draw the line? You and I need food, is that a right too? Your concepts are so confused that I doubt you could even answer that without equivocating and hedging your position but that is a serious question. Every argument you made for health care being a right applies more so to food. So tell me what is different between food and healthcare, shall we enslave the farmers now too? And what about electricity or the internet? I have heard people argue that these are rights too and based on your soft thinking you have no argument against them. If you were consistent, as in my black and white world, you would have to join the hoards demanding these "rights" -- provided by whom?

Re: Why doctors are sick of their profession

#149
post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its not clear how anyone can make someone else embarrassed for views they don't share. I'd have more respect for you if you called me an idiot for my views but your embarrassment at my claims makes me think that you actually know the truth, but lack the courage to rethink it. > we [doctors] could do a better job advocating for ourselves... Its all just negotiating the terms of your slavery if you agree that people ha…

If you are British enough you can be embarrassed for anyone. I find you embarrassing because your point of view ignores the fiduciary nature of a doctor-patient relationship. That relationship is both sacred and humbling, and the most amazing thing in my otherwise paperwork-laden clinical life. For patients to trust me enough to tell me everything is a duty to be met with respect. Putting patients first is the part t…

> Putting patients first is the part that seems "right." That's not a coincidence, it's the job.

You claim a responsibility for the trust between the doctor-client relationship but with govt control of medicine its now a three-way and one of the parties is holding a gun to your head. You can't put your client first under govt controlled medical system. The doctors are very unhappy, as 2mur expressed "There is no chance I would do it again" and I have heard from many doctors. Following the regulations or the bureaucrats comes first and you know this because I have yet to hear of a doctor not complain about this.

Also, if you are British you should realize the Empire died a long time ago when they stopped calling the uncivilized peoples savages. Your embarrassment on my behalf is quaint but no longer necessary.

Re: Why doctors are sick of their profession

#150
post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Um, you may have missed the point. 1. The thing that distinguishes the values of the Civil Rights era reactionaries is that they're generally failing to transmit themselves from one generation to a next. So unlike the more egalitarian values of the left - which are actually growing stronger with each subsequent generation - the bigotry of the right is uniquely tied to the lifespans of specific people. When they die,…

I'm not sure how racism worked its way into an article on health care. But, your assertions that the TEA Party and Republicans are inherently racist are misplaced. Let's start with a little history. Lincoln who freed the slaves, Republican. Jim Crow laws, Southern Democrats. Most votes against the 1964 Civil Rights act, Democrat. Inner cities where blacks are oppressed, run by Democrats. In fact, you would be hard pr…

That may all be true, but like Strom Thurmond, nearly all of the democrats you're referring to either retired or became republicans in the years since 1964.

>In fact, you would be hard pressed to find any racism in the TEA Party or Republican party.

That's an amusing perspective, given that both parties have members who espouse racist beliefs, with the Republican party having slightly (only slightly) more than the Democrats: http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/are-white-republicans-mo...

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